How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
slow_poke said:
Brexit is no idea of the EU's, it's all on the UK.
UK needs to engage with reality - their Brexit choice will change the status quo in Ireland. It's facile and juvenile to imagine the UK can just walk away from the consequences of their own decision and then blame everyone else apart from themselves.
The Irish border can be solved - BritGov should get on with solving it.
I understand the anger and frustration. But equally, you have to recognise (even if you don't necessarily accept it) that Northern Ireland is still part of the UK and no British Government is going to allow a border in the Irish sea. UK needs to engage with reality - their Brexit choice will change the status quo in Ireland. It's facile and juvenile to imagine the UK can just walk away from the consequences of their own decision and then blame everyone else apart from themselves.
The Irish border can be solved - BritGov should get on with solving it.
We had the CTA long before we had the EU. I think movement in relation to ordinary folk twixt north and south should not be an issue, especially as Ireland is not in Schengen, meaning that we have been policing each others borders pretty much for quite a long time already.
The issue is that of the movement of goods, but even here are we seriously suggesting that a sensible use of technology cannot be applied?
As I read it, both the UK and Brussels think a technical solution is available, the only difference is where and how it is applied. Asking a country like the UK to effectively hand over NI to Brussels is not going to work. Brexit might very well be a decision made by the British, but to say it's all on the UK is quite wrong - otherwise how come there is a mechanism built into the EU that provides for a member to leave? You might argue that the mechanism was never intended to be used, that it's inclusion was to provide the illusion of choice where in reality there was none. But whatever the facts, the choice has been made and it really is in everyones best interests to work together.
It's quite bizarre listening to some Remain folk countering on that the EU cannot be forced to compromise on its principles (!), and yet in the same breath the UK must be forced to do just that, simply because it has exercised a democratic choice that was legally included in the treaties that create the EU.
desolate said:
Vanden Saab said:
Are you suggesting that the UK a sovereign nation should be split in two to satisfy a treaty between other countries? Should the border not be between the Republic of Ireland and France, Germany et al? As they are separate countries?
No.I was suggesting is as it could actually be economically advantageous for Northern Ireland.
Plenty of firms have set up offices/branches in the EU since the referendum. This could have happened in Belfast with some planning. That horse has long since bolted but there will be opportunities on the future
slow_poke said:
Brexit is no idea of the EU's, it's all on the UK.
The Irish border can be solved
Well, they were warned and failed to take heed .. they sent Cameron away with his tail between his legs The Irish border can be solved
You do wonder whether if Junker et all had reacted differently in 2014 whether Brexit would ever have happened?
There is culpability for Brexit on the EU
Earthdweller said:
slow_poke said:
Brexit is no idea of the EU's, it's all on the UK.
The Irish border can be solved
Well, they were warned and failed to take heed .. they sent Cameron away with his tail between his legs The Irish border can be solved
You do wonder whether if Junker et all had reacted differently in 2014 whether Brexit would ever have happened?
There is culpability for Brexit on the EU
I’m quite happy with brexit as we have no crazy UKIP MPs, compare this to any other country in Europe where the extreme parties are starting to get substantial popular support...
desolate said:
Jockman said:
Decent stab at a solution but would involve a lot of creativity rather than creationism.
Maybe there is as much resistance from a certain type of nationalist/unionist that refuses to countenance it.I could see it be a major positive for NI.
The vote was a UK wide vote. If the People's Vote was "no deal" or "break up the UK", no deal would trounce it.
slow_poke said:
Brexit is no idea of the EU's, it's all on the UK.
UK needs to engage with reality - their Brexit choice will change the status quo in Ireland. It's facile and juvenile to imagine the UK can just walk away from the consequences of their own decision and then blame everyone else apart from themselves.
The Irish border can be solved - BritGov should get on with solving it.
There was a perfectly operable RoI to NI border we'll before the EU existed. UK needs to engage with reality - their Brexit choice will change the status quo in Ireland. It's facile and juvenile to imagine the UK can just walk away from the consequences of their own decision and then blame everyone else apart from themselves.
The Irish border can be solved - BritGov should get on with solving it.
The EU created its rules, including the ability for sovereign nations to leave the cabal, evidently without any consideration to how that might work when it comes to the sovereignty of the member leaving and the borders with member states who are staying. It is not the UK's problem. At least not solely (and I'd argue not even primarily).
The border does not belong to the EU. The EU is not a nation state. The UK can sort what it chooses to do with its border. Ireland needs to do the same.
Murph7355 said:
The bigger can of worms being avoided, IMO, is what happens when wee Jimmy Krankie then turns the air raid sirens up to 11? Or Khan takes it upon himself to declare London the next Luxembourg? Or the local village in Surrey reckons it should be a special case.
The vote was a UK wide vote. If the People's Vote was "no deal" or "break up the UK", no deal would trounce it.
In principle what's the issue with SM and CU membership being a devolved matter?The vote was a UK wide vote. If the People's Vote was "no deal" or "break up the UK", no deal would trounce it.
Murph7355 said:
There was a perfectly operable RoI to NI border we'll before the EU existed.
The EU created its rules, including the ability for sovereign nations to leave the cabal, evidently without any consideration to how that might work when it comes to the sovereignty of the member leaving and the borders with member states who are staying. It is not the UK's problem. At least not solely (and I'd argue not even primarily).
The border does not belong to the EU. The EU is not a nation state. The UK can sort what it chooses to do with its border. Ireland needs to do the same.
Someone on Politico just posted an interesting comment on this. The U.K. wants and open border and doesn’t really are about tariffs between the U.K. and Eire. Equally, the Irish want an open border and don’t care about tariffs the other way.The EU created its rules, including the ability for sovereign nations to leave the cabal, evidently without any consideration to how that might work when it comes to the sovereignty of the member leaving and the borders with member states who are staying. It is not the UK's problem. At least not solely (and I'd argue not even primarily).
The border does not belong to the EU. The EU is not a nation state. The UK can sort what it chooses to do with its border. Ireland needs to do the same.
The only people with a problem are the EU and their precious project.
desolate said:
In principle what's the issue with SM and CU membership being a devolved matter?
Perhaps think about it for even 5mins.1) How devolved do you want it? Is London allowed to stay in them? One assumes not, so England and Wales stay, Scotland and NI leave.
2) Funding. What then happens? NI and Scotland are massively subsidised at present. Does that stop? Or should those devolved areas Leaving continue to fund them so that they can use that funding to remain members of these edifices?
3) Will either of them be allowed to remain in them in their own right? Is there a precedent for this? (We now know that cherry picking isn't allowed and that no new ways are allowed either).
4) If the border issue is genuinely the thorniest problem in thorny problem week, what are you going to do between two places that don't even have a BORDER to even the same degree as RoI/NI? Eg Scotland and the UK.
Etc etc.
loafer123 said:
Someone on Politico just posted an interesting comment on this. The U.K. wants and open border and doesn’t really are about tariffs between the U.K. and Eire. Equally, the Irish want an open border and don’t care about tariffs the other way.
The only people with a problem are the EU and their precious project.
Irish politicians have a problem if they wish to remain in the EU/conform fully to what they are being told to do....The only people with a problem are the EU and their precious project.
Rather than draw the imaginary line down the Irish Sea, Barnier could of course suggest drawing it around Eire. In terms of trade and other details that would probably work far better than what he's suggested thus far. But that doesn't help the project and Leo probably wouldn't like it one bit.
Murph7355 said:
Perhaps think about it for even 5mins.
1) How devolved do you want it? Is London allowed to stay in them? One assumes not, so England and Wales stay, Scotland and NI leave.
at the moment we devolve power to bodies in Wales, NI and Scotland. is there a fundamental difference in devolving this power?
2) Funding. What then happens? NI and Scotland are massively subsidised at present. Does that stop? Or should those devolved areas Leaving continue to fund them so that they can use that funding to remain members of these edifices?
why would the funding mechanisms need to change? We have funding agreements in place, just use them
3) Will either of them be allowed to remain in them in their own right? Is there a precedent for this? (We now know that cherry picking isn't allowed and that no new ways are allowed either).
no idea.
4) If the border issue is genuinely the thorniest problem in thorny problem week, what are you going to do between two places that don't even have a BORDER to even the same degree as RoI/NI? Eg Scotland and the UK.
I mentioned it as a pragmatic economically positive solution for Northern Ireland. Would it work economically? If they would gain economically the rest is just posturing bulls
t.
1) How devolved do you want it? Is London allowed to stay in them? One assumes not, so England and Wales stay, Scotland and NI leave.
at the moment we devolve power to bodies in Wales, NI and Scotland. is there a fundamental difference in devolving this power?
2) Funding. What then happens? NI and Scotland are massively subsidised at present. Does that stop? Or should those devolved areas Leaving continue to fund them so that they can use that funding to remain members of these edifices?
why would the funding mechanisms need to change? We have funding agreements in place, just use them
3) Will either of them be allowed to remain in them in their own right? Is there a precedent for this? (We now know that cherry picking isn't allowed and that no new ways are allowed either).
no idea.
4) If the border issue is genuinely the thorniest problem in thorny problem week, what are you going to do between two places that don't even have a BORDER to even the same degree as RoI/NI? Eg Scotland and the UK.
I mentioned it as a pragmatic economically positive solution for Northern Ireland. Would it work economically? If they would gain economically the rest is just posturing bulls
t.Murph7355 said:
soupdragon1 said:
earl
There must be a border yes. Is it the UK or EU responsibility to do that, I'm not sure.
There is a border. There must be a border yes. Is it the UK or EU responsibility to do that, I'm not sure.
Next.
Anyone else see Lord Wolfson on the Andrew Marr show yesterday?
Wolfson is the chairman of the Open Europe organisation.
Lord Wolfson is also the CEO of Next that well known fashion retailer that also sells furniture, which includes the Bernie range of dining room and office chairs available in both leather and for the less well off, faux leather.
I mentioned the range Bernie) as rather bizarrely the range featured quite heavily in a Brexit thread.
Wolfson is a great fan of Brexit, and not in any way fearful of leaving the EU without a deal, although naturally would much prefer a deal to be in place at the end of March next year.
Quite a contrast between the share price of Next and another fashion retailer today, Superdry's share price collapsed by nearly 20% on the back of the heatwave the UK experienced this year apparently.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45860769
I seem to recall the founder of Superdry getting involved in Brexit which led to some controversy, but couldn't quite recall what it was, then looked on Google which led back to the BBC website:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45235655
I doubt there's a link, it was a very hot summer after all.
don'tbesilly said:
Lord Wolfson is also the CEO of Next that well known fashion retailer that also sells furniture, which includes the Bernie range of dining room and office chairs available in both leather and for the less well off, faux leather.
I mentioned the range Bernie) as rather bizarrely the range featured quite heavily in a Brexit thread.
I mentioned the range Bernie) as rather bizarrely the range featured quite heavily in a Brexit thread.
Murph7355 said:
loafer123 said:
Someone on Politico just posted an interesting comment on this. The U.K. wants and open border and doesn’t really are about tariffs between the U.K. and Eire. Equally, the Irish want an open border and don’t care about tariffs the other way.
The only people with a problem are the EU and their precious project.
Irish politicians have a problem if they wish to remain in the EU/conform fully to what they are being told to do....The only people with a problem are the EU and their precious project.
Rather than draw the imaginary line down the Irish Sea, Barnier could of course suggest drawing it around Eire. In terms of trade and other details that would probably work far better than what he's suggested thus far. But that doesn't help the project and Leo probably wouldn't like it one bit.
loafer123 said:
Someone on Politico just posted an interesting comment on this. The U.K. wants and open border and doesn’t really care about tariffs between the U.K. and Eire. Equally, the Irish want an open border and don’t care about tariffs the other way.
The only people with a problem are the EU and their corrupt and dictatorial project.
Fixed that for you.The only people with a problem are the EU and their corrupt and dictatorial project.
Earthdweller said:
Murph7355 said:
loafer123 said:
Someone on Politico just posted an interesting comment on this. The U.K. wants and open border and doesn’t really are about tariffs between the U.K. and Eire. Equally, the Irish want an open border and don’t care about tariffs the other way.
The only people with a problem are the EU and their precious project.
Irish politicians have a problem if they wish to remain in the EU/conform fully to what they are being told to do....The only people with a problem are the EU and their precious project.
Rather than draw the imaginary line down the Irish Sea, Barnier could of course suggest drawing it around Eire. In terms of trade and other details that would probably work far better than what he's suggested thus far. But that doesn't help the project and Leo probably wouldn't like it one bit.
This whole NI business is a complete red herring and is only stalling the negotiations of a properly decent Brexit.
May should tell the DUP to swallow the border and smile about it because that'll enable a better brexit deal for GB. Their alternative is another GE and the possibility of Shinner running dog Comrade Corbyn becoming PM, and what would that leave to?
Someone's got to take one for the Brexit team, it might as well be the DUPpers.
slow_poke said:
Leo's job is safe enough.
This whole NI business is a complete red herring and is only stalling the negotiations of a properly decent Brexit.
May should tell the DUP to swallow the border and smile about it because that'll enable a better brexit deal for GB. Their alternative is another GE and the possibility of Shinner running dog Comrade Corbyn becoming PM, and what would that leave to?
Someone's got to take one for the Brexit team, it might as well be the DUPpers.
You've never been to NI, have you?This whole NI business is a complete red herring and is only stalling the negotiations of a properly decent Brexit.
May should tell the DUP to swallow the border and smile about it because that'll enable a better brexit deal for GB. Their alternative is another GE and the possibility of Shinner running dog Comrade Corbyn becoming PM, and what would that leave to?
Someone's got to take one for the Brexit team, it might as well be the DUPpers.
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