How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Piha said:
Teresa was voted in on the back of a democratic GE to get the best possible EU Leave deal. That is what she is doing. Those that voted tory need to get behind TM, that's the democratic way!
Calling her infantile names is just plain silly.
She was voted in on her manifesto, holding her to that is everyone's democratic duty. Calling her infantile names is just plain silly.
Nodding along as she spears off on a tangent because she's not capable of running a negotiation isn't something anyone should be getting involved with, though it's hardly a surprise that the usual suspects have pilled in today to push the line that democracy means handing all power of to the PM when it suits.
You spelled her name wrong too.
Spectator on why the leak by the EU was so unhelpful to May
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/brussels-lev...
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/brussels-lev...
paulrockliffe said:
May doubles down at PMQs; we're taking back control of money, borders, fisheries, leaving the Customs Union and Single Market and protecting the integrity of the UK.
So all the news reports must be wrong, I'm looking forward to reading my 500 pages.
It's bad when you're getting eviscerated by Corbyn on something like this, quoting Weyand now.
But what's more interesting is the ineptitude of May that she's not managed the message by asking the EU to not say a word until she's signed up Cabinet and put herself in PMQs between leaks and Cabinet meeting.
She's a moron.
This^^^. Would add she looks slightly mad when smirking like a loon when answering the question from Peter Bone MP.So all the news reports must be wrong, I'm looking forward to reading my 500 pages.
It's bad when you're getting eviscerated by Corbyn on something like this, quoting Weyand now.
But what's more interesting is the ineptitude of May that she's not managed the message by asking the EU to not say a word until she's signed up Cabinet and put herself in PMQs between leaks and Cabinet meeting.
She's a moron.
To answer the question "How do we think EU negotiations will go". Can we now collectively say appalling, disaster and a shambles, or wait another few days for this agreement to be dissected? Waiting will more than likely require some stronger negative words.
paulrockliffe said:
Piha said:
Teresa was voted in on the back of a democratic GE to get the best possible EU Leave deal. That is what she is doing. Those that voted tory need to get behind TM, that's the democratic way!
Calling her infantile names is just plain silly.
She was voted in on her manifesto, holding her to that is everyone's democratic duty. Calling her infantile names is just plain silly.
Nodding along as she spears off on a tangent because she's not capable of running a negotiation isn't something anyone should be getting involved with, though it's hardly a surprise that the usual suspects have pilled in today to push the line that democracy means handing all power of to the PM when it suits.
You spelled her name wrong too.
They didn't bother listening to/reading May's LH speech or even glance at the 2017 manifesto, and don't seem bothered in any way at how May is going against all of her pledges/promises made since taking office, and seem cock a hoop that the deal being proposed is far worse than what previously existed, and is a worse deal that May now prefers to a no deal.
One has to wonder whether Corbyn/Labour would do better, he couldn't possibly do worse than May.
paulrockliffe said:
She was voted in on her manifesto, holding her to that is everyone's democratic duty.
Nodding along as she spears off on a tangent because she's not capable of running a negotiation isn't something anyone should be getting involved with, though it's hardly a surprise that the usual suspects have pilled in today to push the line that democracy means handing all power of to the PM when it suits.
You spelled her name wrong too.
Nodding along as she spears off on a tangent because she's not capable of running a negotiation isn't something anyone should be getting involved with, though it's hardly a surprise that the usual suspects have pilled in today to push the line that democracy means handing all power of to the PM when it suits.
You spelled her name wrong too.
I'm not a TM fan..!
But she does have a difficult job that nobody else in there tory party had the courage or skill to take on.
Greg66 said:
What I find properly mad is MPs saying "let's put this to the people and see if it's what they wanted".
Err, no.
That really did not work well last time (not quibbling with the result; the point is that the whole thing was mired in misinformation and a chunk of people on both sides voting to make a point rather than to achieve the result that their voted sought; then there has been an ongoing fallout over what the "leave" vote actually means).
Who could possibly think that individual members of the public would immerse themselves in the detail of the proposal, and the alternatives, sufficiently to make an informed decision? I consider myself to be reasonably inquisitive about this sort of thing and I can't see me doing it.
It is precisely for things like this that we have an elected representative democracy: MPs who are supposed to do the heavy intellectual lifting on things like this and make the hard decisions for us.
"Supposed to", indeed. You may not remember Labour's minister for Europe admitting in the HoC that she hadn't read the Lisbon Treaty, just before it was signed. Intellectual heavy lifting often means shutting up and doing what they're told for the good of their career. They may be of above average intelligence (Ms Abbot and her ilk excepted) but they are by no means always motivated to do what's best for the country.Err, no.
That really did not work well last time (not quibbling with the result; the point is that the whole thing was mired in misinformation and a chunk of people on both sides voting to make a point rather than to achieve the result that their voted sought; then there has been an ongoing fallout over what the "leave" vote actually means).
Who could possibly think that individual members of the public would immerse themselves in the detail of the proposal, and the alternatives, sufficiently to make an informed decision? I consider myself to be reasonably inquisitive about this sort of thing and I can't see me doing it.
It is precisely for things like this that we have an elected representative democracy: MPs who are supposed to do the heavy intellectual lifting on things like this and make the hard decisions for us.
don'tbesilly said:
The chances are many of the bitter Remainers are Tory voters.
They didn't bother listening to/reading May's LH speech or even glance at the 2017 manifesto, and don't seem bothered in any way at how May is going against all of her pledges/promises made since taking office, and seem cock a hoop that the deal being proposed is far worse than what previously existed, and is a worse deal that May now prefers to a no deal.
One has to wonder whether Corbyn/Labour would do better, he couldn't possibly do worse than May.
While Labour can generally be relied to bog up the economy, past experience suggests that such mishaps are at least reversible. The constitutional abortion that May seems to have cooked up with Barnier and wishes to foist on us appears to be permanent and entails the loss of our ability to decide who makes our laws. They didn't bother listening to/reading May's LH speech or even glance at the 2017 manifesto, and don't seem bothered in any way at how May is going against all of her pledges/promises made since taking office, and seem cock a hoop that the deal being proposed is far worse than what previously existed, and is a worse deal that May now prefers to a no deal.
One has to wonder whether Corbyn/Labour would do better, he couldn't possibly do worse than May.
I know which is more serious.
Coolbanana said:
. . . . . . . I probably will laugh at Leavers who are unhappy once the full impact of Brexit is realised - after all, they have sown their own failure and deserve ridicule. 
Of course Leavers, Remainers and those who couldn’t care less will all be affected by Brexit. Personally, I will feel sorry for all if we end up with a bum deal. There seems to be a view amongst Remainers that a bum deal will be solely the fault of Leavers because “this what they voted for” which is clearly not what they did. Remainers want to accept no responsibility that the resistance and undermining they have undertaken will have contributed to a bum deal. It really is a cracking example of heads up arses.
Therefore, there is a school of thought that can lay significant blame at the door of Remainers and that they should be laughed at as they too will have to suck up the results of their own folly.
Piha said:
:But she does have a difficult job that nobody else in there tory party had the courage or skill to take on.
Come on, you're presenting this outcome as the only possible outcome given May is the best person and this is what she came back with.If you go back a few pages there was a dissection to October of where we are and why mistakes that May made in the process have lead us to where we are. Read it if you want to understand why your premise is false.
You must agree that there is something fundamentally wrong when the PM is telling Brexiteers to vote with her because it's her deal or no Brexit while also telling remainers that it's her deal or a no deal that she has chosen not to prepare for.
That one fact, no preparation for leaving with no deal is the fundamental mistake that even the most naive negotiator would not have made by mistake.
May now explicit that we can have trade deals with other countries. Righto.
don'tbesilly said:
The chances are many of the bitter Remainers are Tory voters.
Given the close result of the referendum and the physical votes cast in the last GE (Con 42.4. Lab 40.0 and LD 7%) I would suggest it would be reasonable to assume there's pretty much a 50/50 split between Labour and Conservative.I voted to remain.
I lost.
Oh well, I thought, new horizon, suck it up and get on with it. I cant change the result.
.
Remainers - b
h, moan, groan.
Brexiters - gloat, gloat, gloat
.
.
Now I sit and listen to the Remainer's................."The negotiations are terrible".
and I sit and listen to the Brexiter's................."The negotiations are terrible".
.
.
.
Seems like no one is going to get what they wanted?
Happy days.
Think I'll go buy a car made in England and drive up into the Welsh hills and check out my new horizon.
I lost.
Oh well, I thought, new horizon, suck it up and get on with it. I cant change the result.
.
Remainers - b
h, moan, groan.Brexiters - gloat, gloat, gloat
.
.
Now I sit and listen to the Remainer's................."The negotiations are terrible".
and I sit and listen to the Brexiter's................."The negotiations are terrible".
.
.
.
Seems like no one is going to get what they wanted?
Happy days.
Think I'll go buy a car made in England and drive up into the Welsh hills and check out my new horizon.
bobbo89 said:
This thread will be on fire later! I won't be contributing at all but just sitting back and enjoying the ridiculous, smug, bitter and condescending comments from both sides. Probably wont even need to turn on the TV tonight!
This has been the case since volume one, the same tired old arguments repeated again and again.... Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff