How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)

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SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
Gecko1978 said:
Roboraver said:
Lololol Dyson nothing more to say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45950377

Hmmm, availability of talent, regional supply chains and proximity to target markets...all make the UK unattractive after Brexit.
Brexit had nothing to do with it as the article states
Nope.....nothing.......zip.......zilch

Nothing to see here.....move on.... nothing at all.......
Play fair.

UK part of the EU - Dyson moves production of vacuum cleaners to the Far East
UK outside the EU - Dyson decides to build his cars in the Far East

Why does only one of those interest you?

If the second apparently clearly indicates the UK is in trouble, why doesn't the first indicate that the EU is in trouble?

Or is this just global business doing what it does?

Gecko1978

9,603 posts

156 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
Piha said:
Gecko1978 said:
Roboraver said:
Lololol Dyson nothing more to say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45950377

Hmmm, availability of talent, regional supply chains and proximity to target markets...all make the UK unattractive after Brexit.
Brexit had nothing to do with it as the article states
Nope.....nothing.......zip.......zilch

Nothing to see here.....move on.... nothing at all.......
Play fair.

UK part of the EU - Dyson moves production of vacuum cleaners to the Far East
UK outside the EU - Dyson decides to build his cars in the Far East

Why does only one of those interest you?

If the second apparently clearly indicates the UK is in trouble, why doesn't the first indicate that the EU is in trouble?

Or is this just global business doing what it does?
Dyson was already manufacturing in the east due to labour costs so to continue to do so makes sense unless post brexit we make use of slave labour to build electric cars.

Also cars will be sold in Asia as well as Europe and I assume transport costs to Europe from Asia are same as Asia to Europe. An if the eu was such a good place would he not build them in say Germany

Jazzy Jag

3,412 posts

90 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
Piha said:
Gecko1978 said:
Roboraver said:
Lololol Dyson nothing more to say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45950377

Hmmm, availability of talent, regional supply chains and proximity to target markets...all make the UK unattractive after Brexit.
Brexit had nothing to do with it as the article states
Nope.....nothing.......zip.......zilch

Nothing to see here.....move on.... nothing at all.......
Play fair.

UK part of the EU - Dyson moves production of vacuum cleaners to the Far East
UK outside the EU - Dyson decides to build his cars in the Far East

Why does only one of those interest you?

If the second apparently clearly indicates the UK is in trouble, why doesn't the first indicate that the EU is in trouble?

Or is this just global business doing what it does?
Not forgetting that the EU helped Ford move to Turkey from Eastleigh and have just handed JLR a lump of cash to build outside of the UK while Castle Bromwich is on a 3 day week and Solihull on shutdown.

But that's the EU so it's all fine.

Nothing to see here.
Nope, nothing, zip, zilch.

F1GTRUeno

6,335 posts

217 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
we're still one of the very best 'engineering departments', and that position should be maintainable if we do it right.
Whilst I agree about our engineering departments, have we shown any capability whatsoever that we can do 'it' right?

Seen as government has been a shambles whether Tory or Labour (everyone else is barely worth mentioning) for so long I can't believe anybody has such faith in them to steer us in the right course post-Brexit.

citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
Play fair.

UK part of the EU - Dyson moves production of vacuum cleaners to the Far East
UK outside the EU - Dyson decides to build his cars in the Far East

Why does only one of those interest you?

If the second apparently clearly indicates the UK is in trouble, why doesn't the first indicate that the EU is in trouble?

Or is this just global business doing what it does?
No it indicates that Dyson is out for one person only and that's himself and brings into question just why he wants the UK out of the EU

wiggy001

6,542 posts

270 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
No it indicates that Dyson is out for one person only and that's himself and brings into question just why he wants the UK out of the EU
rofl

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
F1GTRUeno said:
SpeckledJim said:
we're still one of the very best 'engineering departments', and that position should be maintainable if we do it right.
Whilst I agree about our engineering departments, have we shown any capability whatsoever that we can do 'it' right?

Seen as government has been a shambles whether Tory or Labour (everyone else is barely worth mentioning) for so long I can't believe anybody has such faith in them to steer us in the right course post-Brexit.
Plenty. There is a reason we're one of the largest manufacturing nations, and a reason our engineers are prized the world over.

Separate government from nation - our government is broadly useless, on a par with it would seem with most in the developed world.

Our abilities as a nation are superb.

F1GTRUeno

6,335 posts

217 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
Sway said:
F1GTRUeno said:
SpeckledJim said:
we're still one of the very best 'engineering departments', and that position should be maintainable if we do it right.
Whilst I agree about our engineering departments, have we shown any capability whatsoever that we can do 'it' right?

Seen as government has been a shambles whether Tory or Labour (everyone else is barely worth mentioning) for so long I can't believe anybody has such faith in them to steer us in the right course post-Brexit.
Plenty. There is a reason we're one of the largest manufacturing nations, and a reason our engineers are prized the world over.

Separate government from nation - our government is broadly useless, on a par with it would seem with most in the developed world.

Our abilities as a nation are superb.
Again, I'm not saying that our engineers and manufacturers aren't amazing, they most certainly are, there's a reason why everyone except Ferrari in F1 is based in the UK for instance.

But they're beholden to our government to do what's right for them and our government has shown time and time again, no matter who gets voted in that they cannot do what's right for our companies or our people. Nigh on every single person in our government is fking useless.

And we voted to believe in them rather than people in Brussels. Best case scenario is better the devil we know than the one we don't but I never thought giving our government more autonomy when they're all compete feckwits was a good idea. I get the 'I don't want to be dictated to by those I didn't choose' but when the options you DO get to choose are so awful, does it really matter?

If the stshow that has been Brexit negotiations isn't enough to show everybody that it was a bad idea to believe in the government then I firmly believe people are blind.

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Tuesday 23 October 13:46

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
F1GTRUeno said:
Sway said:
F1GTRUeno said:
SpeckledJim said:
we're still one of the very best 'engineering departments', and that position should be maintainable if we do it right.
Whilst I agree about our engineering departments, have we shown any capability whatsoever that we can do 'it' right?

Seen as government has been a shambles whether Tory or Labour (everyone else is barely worth mentioning) for so long I can't believe anybody has such faith in them to steer us in the right course post-Brexit.
Plenty. There is a reason we're one of the largest manufacturing nations, and a reason our engineers are prized the world over.

Separate government from nation - our government is broadly useless, on a par with it would seem with most in the developed world.

Our abilities as a nation are superb.
Again, I'm not saying that our engineers and manufacturers aren't amazing, they most certainly are, there's a reason why everyone except Ferrari in F1 is based in the UK for instance.

But they're beholden to our government to do what's right for them and our government has shown time and time again, no matter who gets voted in that they cannot do what's right for our companies or our people. Nigh on every single person in our government is fking useless.

And we voted to believe in them rather than people in Brussels. Best case scenario is better the devil we know than the one we don't but I never thought giving our government more autonomy when they're all compete feckwits was a good idea.
Yet under those UK governments, we have grown that talent, developed those businesses, and earned that wealth.

On the basis that an ineffective government is a hindrance, what possible advantage is there to adding additional layers, especially ones unbeholden to consider the needs of the UK and effectively separate from the electoral mandate? Especially when the likes of Juncker can achieve so much progression... Can you really imagine someone such as he could end up British PM?

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
No it indicates that Dyson is out for one person only and that's himself and brings into question just why he wants the UK out of the EU
This kinda highlights a difference between Remainers and Leavers.

Remainers believe that Dyson should be 'investing in the UK', Leavers believe he should be 'investing globally'.

For Remainers, it doesn't matter if it's poor business or uneconomical to build something in the UK (or the EU), he should be doing so 'for the kids' (or something). If he does otherwise then he's a greedy money grabbing capitalist pig dog. I paraphrase, simply because I think this argument is self serving and poorly thought out. In particular it shows pretty broad ignorance of the work Dyson does in the UK.

For Leavers, (and here I'll count myself as a Leaver in that I believe in free trade and global business), Dyson is one of a rare breed of British entrepreneur, and his successful business brings money into the country and funds serious levels of investment in research, skills and technology. Wherever Dyson happens to manufacture his products, money, technology and skills are being brought into the UK.

I find myself asking why we fare fairly badly at building new and innovative businesses. The US and China are racing ahead in innovative technology. We don't have an EU version of Facebook, Google, Tesla, DJI, GoPro, Amazon, Uber, Alibaba, Ebay, Banggood... it's quite a long list. If you look at the EU's response to these big companies, it's almost wholly negative. Their first reaction is to try to preserve the old-guard, then to force businesses to await regulation, then to try to enforce competition in industries that are barely established.

The attitude is that without state intervention, these companies are 'bad', and that emergent industries should be guided by officials who know better. Yet it's pretty clear that the environment they impose has proven to be pretty barren when it comes to this sort of innovation. Part of my optimism for Brexit is that we could look at the environment we have created in fresh eyes and encourage a healthier market.

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
F1GTRUeno said:
Again, I'm not saying that our engineers and manufacturers aren't amazing, they most certainly are, there's a reason why everyone except Ferrari in F1 is based in the UK for instance.

But they're beholden to our government to do what's right for them and our government has shown time and time again, no matter who gets voted in that they cannot do what's right for our companies or our people. Nigh on every single person in our government is fking useless.
Do you *really* believe that if it were entirely up to the EU, all of the F1 teams would remain in the UK?

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
Well said Tuna.

Randy Winkman

16,021 posts

188 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
Jazzy Jag said:
Didn't Tusk say that Canada +++ was already on the table?
Only if the UK agrees to treat NI as outside the UK union with respect to goods and services and stays aligned with the EU within the EU CU and SM, meaning NI is unable to take any benefit from future UK FTA's. UK mainland-NI trade is approx 95% of all trade movements in NI, so would be a bad move for NI and certainly not something the unionists would accept.

It's not a genuine offer with those strings attached.

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
Another lovely Remainer indocrinating his child in the art of Chavalry



alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
Using children for political gain, sick or otherwise. nono

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
F1GTRUeno said:
SpeckledJim said:
we're still one of the very best 'engineering departments', and that position should be maintainable if we do it right.
Whilst I agree about our engineering departments, have we shown any capability whatsoever that we can do 'it' right?

Seen as government has been a shambles whether Tory or Labour (everyone else is barely worth mentioning) for so long I can't believe anybody has such faith in them to steer us in the right course post-Brexit.
We were the best in the world at inventing and creating 'stuff' for hundreds of years before the EU existed. Still were whilst part of the EU. Will continue to be, once out of the EU.

This political paperwork is all very trivial in comparison to the capacity for invention, the weight of knowledge and skill, the trading momentum and reputation we have generated.

For whatever reason, you're determined to search for the cloud wherever there's a sniff of a silver lining, and no amount of internetting is going to counter that kind of in-grained pessimism.

Look around at who we are and what we've got. What harm is merely leaving the EU really going to do to any of that? Precious little.


s2art

18,937 posts

252 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
psi310398 said:
B'stard Child said:
Didn't answer my question I'd expect the project team costs with a team of several hundred involved in a 1bn project to be a significant element of the project cost???
The comparison with capital projects is a red herring: these agreements would not be capital projects. There will also be a lot of commonality between different agreements, so nor are they really one-off bespoke projects.

In terms of personnel (and I have decades of experience actually negotiating deals in, and for, Whitehall), what the government will need to provide is a responsive and decisive intelligent client capability. Whitehall should be able to find bodies to do the grunt work but can buy in legal resources from one of the firms on the government legal advisory framework and from the consultancy firms for project/programme management to absorb any shortfall in staff/skills.

This is the model they tend to use on, say, renewal of the passport contract or other periodic or one-off big jobs, and with some success. (You don't hear of the jobs that get done well e.g. the last passport contract, which was tied up with ID cards but change proofed to survive despite the ID cards not being continued with.)

I'd imagine (and I have experience of such agreements in the realm of security co-operation) that you would be looking at a team of ten for most of the work strands, with perhaps 25 on each of the big FTAs. Pure back of the fag packet feel on my part, but actually too large a team on these agreements and you start tripping over each other.

Personally, if asked to direct the task, I'd probably try to set up a project office responsible for resourcing and timetabling with a pool of staff whose skills would be needed across agreements and then appoint project managers, lead negotiators and small core team of negotiators/support responsible for particular agreements who would roster and draw down skilled resources as necessary. This would also help optimise the use of scarce resources and avoid having expensive people sitting on the bench waiting to be used as the programme office could advance or slow activities to match available resources.

Large? Yes. Complex? Yes. Beyond the resources available? No. Beyond the wit of the CS? No. This kind of agreement the CS does a lot better and more painlessly than some of the big capital procurements - if you look at the number of agreements on tax information sharing that HMRC has knocked out in the past few years, it is clear that it can be done straightforwardly if the political will is there.

The fly in the would be more likely political interference/failure to take hard decisions.


Well said, couldnt agree more. It echoes my experience in large IT projects for the CS. The problems occurred with poor change management and the CS' inability to stick to an agreed specification, coupled to political interference. I wasnt involved in the NHS IT project fiasco but I was told it failed for the reasons just mentioned. The MOD has similar problems..

citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
It is being reported that Dyson has picked Singapore because of a lack of engineers

I doubt Coventry and loughborogh uni, s would agree with him as they are both churning out automotive engineers

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Tuesday 23rd October 2018
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
It is being reported that Dyson has picked Singapore because of a lack of engineers

I doubt Coventry and loughborogh uni, s would agree with him as they are both churning out automotive engineers
Not solely the reason put forward though:

BBC article said:
Dyson said the decision was based on the availability of engineering talent, regional supply chains and proximity to some key target markets.
The article also stated Dyson had already spent/ will spend up to £200m in the UK, which is quite a sizeable investment for someone who as some Remainers would like to believe and portray, doesn't believe in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45950377

It's all very sad and desperate stuff from the EU biased media, jumped on by the EU loving remainers, which totally ignores what Dyson has done in the past in the UK, and continues to do in the UK.

Still fake news that hides the truth and lies is desperate stuff.


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