How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)

[SpeckledJim]

crankedup said:

Garvin said:

Coolbanana said:

. . . . . . . I probably will laugh at Leavers who are unhappy once the full impact of Brexit is realised - after all, they have sown their own failure and deserve ridicule.

Of course Leavers, Remainers and those who couldn’t care less will all be affected by Brexit. Personally, I will feel sorry for all if we end up with a bum deal.

There seems to be a view amongst Remainers that a bum deal will be solely the fault of Leavers because “this what they voted for” which is clearly not what they did. Remainers want to accept no responsibility that the resistance and undermining they have undertaken will have contributed to a bum deal. It really is a cracking example of heads up arses.

Therefore, there is a school of thought that can lay significant blame at the door of Remainers and that they should be laughed at as they too will have to suck up the results of their own folly.

There is a case for the EU to carry some responsibility of failure imo. Due to the lack of engagement and thier transigent mind set applied to the regulations of the EU it has led to the current situation. Unless the EU political construct can look at itself with a critical eye and adapt to a changing World I foresee the EU collapsing in on itself as more Member states populations become increasingly dissatisfied. Of course the poorest of those states maybe all that is left of the EU, propped up by Germany and France.

Yes, any business person in the rEU facing a loss of trade with the UK can ask the EU if their dogma was worth more than the economic impact that the people of the EU will shoulder.

Perhaps the answer is 'yes', but whatever the answer the question is legitimate.

[skwdenyer]

crankedup said:

There is a case for the EU to carry some responsibility of failure imo. Due to the lack of engagement and thier transigent mind set applied to the regulations of the EU it has led to the current situation. Unless the EU political construct can look at itself with a critical eye and adapt to a changing World I foresee the EU collapsing in on itself as more Member states populations become increasingly dissatisfied. Of course the poorest of those states maybe all that is left of the EU, propped up by Germany and France.

Under its terms of engagement, has the EU failed?

[B'stard Child]

skwdenyer said:

crankedup said:

There is a case for the EU to carry some responsibility of failure imo. Due to the lack of engagement and thier transigent mind set applied to the regulations of the EU it has led to the current situation. Unless the EU political construct can look at itself with a critical eye and adapt to a changing World I foresee the EU collapsing in on itself as more Member states populations become increasingly dissatisfied. Of course the poorest of those states maybe all that is left of the EU, propped up by Germany and France.

Under its terms of engagement, has the EU failed?

Yes

But it’s not unusual to see them bend the rules to ensyre that their political project isn’t compromised so it’s not unexpected

[paulrockliffe]

skwdenyer said:

crankedup said:

There is a case for the EU to carry some responsibility of failure imo. Due to the lack of engagement and thier transigent mind set applied to the regulations of the EU it has led to the current situation. Unless the EU political construct can look at itself with a critical eye and adapt to a changing World I foresee the EU collapsing in on itself as more Member states populations become increasingly dissatisfied. Of course the poorest of those states maybe all that is left of the EU, propped up by Germany and France.

Under its terms of engagement, has the EU failed?

Where the EU's terms of engagement* appropriate might be a better question with a different answer.

• ironic phrase given the EU Army being announced yesterday!

[toppstuff]

We overestimate our importance to the EU.

They care more about the union than any single nation.

Across the EU the general attitude to brexit is not “ oh my god the UK leaving is a disaster !” In general it is a feeling of “ oh well - that makes no sense and they must be mad, but any way let’s talk about Russia, Italy etc etc”.

We have an excess of misplaced arrogance to think we matter that much.

The UK is standing by the exit shouting out really loud “ We are leaving !! Now !! “ and the other kids at the party will look over their shoulder, say “whatever” and go back to more pressing issues.

[B'stard Child]

toppstuff said:

We overestimate our importance to the EU.

They care more about the union than any single nation.

Across the EU the general attitude to brexit is not “ oh my god the UK leaving is a disaster !” In general it is a feeling of “ oh well - that makes no sense and they must be mad, but any way let’s talk about Russia, Italy etc etc”.

We have an excess of misplaced arrogance to think we matter that much.

The UK is standing by the exit shouting out really loud “ We are leaving !! Now !! “ and the other kids at the party will look over their shoulder, say “whatever” and go back to more pressing issues.

You been listening to your teenager again?

[citizensm1th]

B'stard Child said:

toppstuff said:

We overestimate our importance to the EU.

They care more about the union than any single nation.

Across the EU the general attitude to brexit is not “ oh my god the UK leaving is a disaster !” In general it is a feeling of “ oh well - that makes no sense and they must be mad, but any way let’s talk about Russia, Italy etc etc”.

We have an excess of misplaced arrogance to think we matter that much.

The UK is standing by the exit shouting out really loud “ We are leaving !! Now !! “ and the other kids at the party will look over their shoulder, say “whatever” and go back to more pressing issues.

You been listening to your teenager again?

If he has his teen is talking sence. They really don't care about anything other than the project.

If they have to throw us under the bus to keep it on track they will with out a moments regret.

[SpeckledJim]

We need to be clear whether we're talking about 'the EU', which is a small number of people in Brussels, or 'the people of the EU' which is a large number of people not in Brussels.

For one group 'the project' is the only thing that matters. For the other group, probably making a decent living would be more important.

[B'stard Child]

citizensm1th said:

B'stard Child said:

toppstuff said:

We overestimate our importance to the EU.

They care more about the union than any single nation.

Across the EU the general attitude to brexit is not “ oh my god the UK leaving is a disaster !” In general it is a feeling of “ oh well - that makes no sense and they must be mad, but any way let’s talk about Russia, Italy etc etc”.

We have an excess of misplaced arrogance to think we matter that much.

The UK is standing by the exit shouting out really loud “ We are leaving !! Now !! “ and the other kids at the party will look over their shoulder, say “whatever” and go back to more pressing issues.

You been listening to your teenager again?

If he has his teen is talking sence. They really don't care about anything other than the project.

If they have to throw us under the bus to keep it on track they will with out a moments regret.

I knew I should have snipped it to just the last line but PM doesn't like multiple embedded quotes so I thought I'd leave it as is

[TheFlyingBanana]

citizensm1th said:

B'stard Child said:

toppstuff said:

We overestimate our importance to the EU.

They care more about the union than any single nation.

Across the EU the general attitude to brexit is not “ oh my god the UK leaving is a disaster !” In general it is a feeling of “ oh well - that makes no sense and they must be mad, but any way let’s talk about Russia, Italy etc etc”.

We have an excess of misplaced arrogance to think we matter that much.

The UK is standing by the exit shouting out really loud “ We are leaving !! Now !! “ and the other kids at the party will look over their shoulder, say “whatever” and go back to more pressing issues.

You been listening to your teenager again?

If he has his teen is talking sence. They really don't care about anything other than the project.

If they have to throw us under the bus to keep it on track they will with out a moments regret.

We are throwing ourselves under the bus.

The EU aren't.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. We took the decision to leave, a particularly advantageous membership where many exceptions had been made specifically for us, and some seem to think this is the EU's fault we are in this mess.

It isn't. The EU has been completely consistent all the way through this debacle. Our politicians have behaved like toddlers. Most of the EU countries are simply bemused by us.

[don'tbesilly]

B'stard Child said:

toppstuff said:

We overestimate our importance to the EU.

They care more about the union than any single nation.

Across the EU the general attitude to brexit is not “ oh my god the UK leaving is a disaster !” In general it is a feeling of “ oh well - that makes no sense and they must be mad, but any way let’s talk about Russia, Italy etc etc”.

We have an excess of misplaced arrogance to think we matter that much.

The UK is standing by the exit shouting out really loud “ We are leaving !! Now !! “ and the other kids at the party will look over their shoulder, say “whatever” and go back to more pressing issues.

You been listening to your teenager again?

[paulrockliffe]

citizensm1th said:

If he has his teen is talking sence. They really don't care about anything other than the project.

If they have to throw us under the bus to keep it on track they will with out a moments regret.

If that's the case it's a reason to leave, not a reason to stay as I presume you intend?

We have to stay because they'll happily push us under a bush if we don't.

Nearly as bad as pandering to imaginary terrorists if it gets you BRINO.

[p1stonhead]

Raab on board apparently.

[toppstuff]

SpeckledJim said:

We need to be clear whether we're talking about 'the EU', which is a small number of people in Brussels, or 'the people of the EU' which is a large number of people not in Brussels.

For one group 'the project' is the only thing that matters. For the other group, probably making a decent living would be more important.

I work with a lot of Dutch Germans Spanish. The only response I get is puzzlement and a “ why would you do this???” attitude but they do not fear anything from our leaving. In my experience they regard Brexit and Brexiteers as rather strange and impossible to understand.

[B'stard Child]

TheFlyingBanana said:

citizensm1th said:

B'stard Child said:

toppstuff said:

We overestimate our importance to the EU.

They care more about the union than any single nation.

Across the EU the general attitude to brexit is not “ oh my god the UK leaving is a disaster !” In general it is a feeling of “ oh well - that makes no sense and they must be mad, but any way let’s talk about Russia, Italy etc etc”.

We have an excess of misplaced arrogance to think we matter that much.

The UK is standing by the exit shouting out really loud “ We are leaving !! Now !! “ and the other kids at the party will look over their shoulder, say “whatever” and go back to more pressing issues.

You been listening to your teenager again?

If he has his teen is talking sence. They really don't care about anything other than the project.

If they have to throw us under the bus to keep it on track they will with out a moments regret.

We are throwing ourselves under the bus.

The EU aren't.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. We took the decision to leave, a particularly advantageous membership where many exceptions had been made specifically for us, and some seem to think this is the EU's fault we are in this mess.

It isn't. The EU has been completely consistent all the way through this debacle. Our politicians have behaved like toddlers. Most of the EU countries are simply bemused by us.

Because our politicians are trying to get a remain that looks like Brexit - because that's what they want

[psi310398]

toppstuff said:

I work with a lot of Dutch Germans Spanish. The only response I get is puzzlement and a “ why would you do this???” attitude but they do not fear anything from our leaving. In my experience they regard Brexit and Brexiteers as rather strange and impossible to understand.

If we are in anecdote territory, I live amongst a lot of Italians who wish that their politicians would show the balls to do an 'Italexit'.

Many are not 'Unionist' either and would go further and chuck the whole of Italy south of Bologna out, too.

I imagine other Italians have different views, especially in those areas hosed down with North European cash.

[SpeckledJim]

toppstuff said:

SpeckledJim said:

We need to be clear whether we're talking about 'the EU', which is a small number of people in Brussels, or 'the people of the EU' which is a large number of people not in Brussels.

For one group 'the project' is the only thing that matters. For the other group, probably making a decent living would be more important.

I work with a lot of Dutch Germans Spanish. The only response I get is puzzlement and a “ why would you do this???” attitude but they do not fear anything from our leaving. In my experience they regard Brexit and Brexiteers as rather strange and impossible to understand.

I'm not amazed that those are your findings. But there's plenty of graphs around showing a large minority of EU citizens are no fans of the EU.

If you are an EU citizen and your European business is about to suffer because between Brussels and May, you're going to have to handle No Deal, then a complaint to Brussels is reasonable.

They'll tell you to shut up, because the sanctity of the project is more important than your job, and those of your employees, and you'll have to just lump it...and maybe you'll vote differently in the next elections...

[paulrockliffe]

psi310398 said:

toppstuff said:

I work with a lot of Dutch Germans Spanish. The only response I get is puzzlement and a “ why would you do this???” attitude but they do not fear anything from our leaving. In my experience they regard Brexit and Brexiteers as rather strange and impossible to understand.

If we are in anecdote territory, I live amongst a lot of Italians who wish that their politicians would show the balls to do an 'Italexit'.

Many are not 'Unionist' either and would go further and chuck the whole of Italy south of Bologna out, too.

I imagine other Italians have different views, especially in those areas hosed down with North European cash.

I do love a few pages of anecdotes, but May is going to talk more bks soon, so lets not yeah?

[toppstuff]

Before Brexit life in the UK was such that in general a person is free to pursue any legal path they want.

Worship any god they choose.
Move around where they choose.
Eat what they choose.
Do whatever you want to make a living.
Read and watch what you choose.

People always had all they need to make it in life in a way that suits them , or not. It’s up to us.

How brexit became a religion based on nothing but hope and faith beats me. A faith that somehow persuaded people that life would be somehow brighter shinier and better if we left.

This is horse sh it of course.

Once this is done people will eventually look around. If they had a crappy life before brexit it will still be crappy.

Then the remorse will kick in.

[Sway]

toppstuff said:

I work with a lot of Dutch Germans Spanish. The only response I get is puzzlement and a “ why would you do this???” attitude but they do not fear anything from our leaving. In my experience they regard Brexit and Brexiteers as rather strange and impossible to understand.

And how many of them actually understand the implications of the lack of payment reconciliation under Target2, or are aware of quite how many routine banking transactions are conducted in the UK on their behalf?