Second hand EVs
Discussion
Hi All,
Been looking at all electric cars for a while as I would only drive more than 50 miles at any one time once or twice a year, so the range and charging would make sense for me. I don't really get hybids as the running cost doesn't seem much lower than a diesel overall, especially reading some owners comment on here.
My issue is one of cost and I would therefore be looking at second hand rather than new. I note that most battery warranties are for c.8 years so if buying second hand (say 3 years old) would you look to write off the cost of the car over the warranty period?
I don't see how the high price point cars can look to retain any value if they need an expensive battery, i.e a 4 year old Model S for £40k, but there seems to be a real lack of non supermini size cars in the market.
Is there anything upcoming at a reasonable price that would plug this gap?
Cheers
Been looking at all electric cars for a while as I would only drive more than 50 miles at any one time once or twice a year, so the range and charging would make sense for me. I don't really get hybids as the running cost doesn't seem much lower than a diesel overall, especially reading some owners comment on here.
My issue is one of cost and I would therefore be looking at second hand rather than new. I note that most battery warranties are for c.8 years so if buying second hand (say 3 years old) would you look to write off the cost of the car over the warranty period?
I don't see how the high price point cars can look to retain any value if they need an expensive battery, i.e a 4 year old Model S for £40k, but there seems to be a real lack of non supermini size cars in the market.
Is there anything upcoming at a reasonable price that would plug this gap?
Cheers
Best bet is a Leaf30. You could go for an early Jap24 if you really only drive 50miles, the odd one goes for £3.5k. They are pretty bulletproof. Batteries seem to be holding up really well.
3rd party companies can work on the cars way cheaper than Nissan now.
A battery owned Zoe40 (range about 130miles in any conditions) can apparently be had for £12k if you shop around but the Zoe isn't so great on reliability so make sure you have a warranty.
3rd party companies can work on the cars way cheaper than Nissan now.
A battery owned Zoe40 (range about 130miles in any conditions) can apparently be had for £12k if you shop around but the Zoe isn't so great on reliability so make sure you have a warranty.
Tom74 said:
I don't really get hybids as the running cost doesn't seem much lower than a diesel overall, especially reading some owners comment on here
Depends on the system and the driver profile.I think the issue with a lot of hybrid owners is that they bought the wrong car. A lot of hybrids are designed for low range users (where the battery is being used), but allows the car to be used as a conventional petrol should the need require a conventional range. Bit like the Outlander PHEV.
What happens is that people buy them for long commutes, or up and down the motorway all the time, by which point the actual reason for getting it has become irrelevant.
A lot of PHEV/Hybrid cars are designed to reduce the 'range anxiety' that current consumers have over BEVs.
(Note this is 'a lot', but not all Hybrids)
Ok, I see that the batteries will last longer than 8 years, I guess the question was whether an out of warranty battery massively affects the value, I guess we’ll see in a few years!
So for my commute, it’s 18 miles each way, All on B roads, doing between 40 and 60, unless the road’s clear in which case a bit faster if the need takes me!
I take it a hybrid works well at that kind of distance so I shouldn’t dismiss them?
So for my commute, it’s 18 miles each way, All on B roads, doing between 40 and 60, unless the road’s clear in which case a bit faster if the need takes me!
I take it a hybrid works well at that kind of distance so I shouldn’t dismiss them?
cj2013 said:
Tom74 said:
I don't really get hybids as the running cost doesn't seem much lower than a diesel overall, especially reading some owners comment on here
Depends on the system and the driver profile.I think the issue with a lot of hybrid owners is that they bought the wrong car. A lot of hybrids are designed for low range users (where the battery is being used), but allows the car to be used as a conventional petrol should the need require a conventional range. Bit like the Outlander PHEV.
What happens is that people buy them for long commutes, or up and down the motorway all the time, by which point the actual reason for getting it has become irrelevant.
A lot of PHEV/Hybrid cars are designed to reduce the 'range anxiety' that current consumers have over BEVs.
(Note this is 'a lot', but not all Hybrids)
Tom74 said:
Ok, I see that the batteries will last longer than 8 years, I guess the question was whether an out of warranty battery massively affects the value, I guess we’ll see in a few years!
So for my commute, it’s 18 miles each way, All on B roads, doing between 40 and 60, unless the road’s clear in which case a bit faster if the need takes me!
I take it a hybrid works well at that kind of distance so I shouldn’t dismiss them?
Exactly that. Many are basically BEVs with an engine for extended the range with the traditional fuels.So for my commute, it’s 18 miles each way, All on B roads, doing between 40 and 60, unless the road’s clear in which case a bit faster if the need takes me!
I take it a hybrid works well at that kind of distance so I shouldn’t dismiss them?
There are considerable cost savings that can be had with getting a BEV, if you can live with one, mind.
Tom74 said:
Ok, I see that the batteries will last longer than 8 years, I guess the question was whether an out of warranty battery massively affects the value, I guess we’ll see in a few years!
So for my commute, it’s 18 miles each way, All on B roads, doing between 40 and 60, unless the road’s clear in which case a bit faster if the need takes me!
I take it a hybrid works well at that kind of distance so I shouldn’t dismiss them?
My commute is 24 miles each way and just bought a BMW i3 last weekend. Its an absolute revelation and will save me a fortune. Have a look at my other posts for questions I asked before proceeding. So for my commute, it’s 18 miles each way, All on B roads, doing between 40 and 60, unless the road’s clear in which case a bit faster if the need takes me!
I take it a hybrid works well at that kind of distance so I shouldn’t dismiss them?
On average 2011 24kwh leafs have around 70-75% SOH , this is likely the worst case scenario for battery health on full BEVs
Find out what the typical max range for a 100% one is, then do the math on the SOH, also if it gets cold where you live you probably want to knock a third off that range for winter ( which hits smaller battery cars more).
Then add in some battery degradation over the time you own it say 4-5% a year and roughly work out if it will still do what you need in 4-5 years time etc.
I expect (24kwh) leafs will have battery replaced at 10-12 years old, the old battery will go to home storage and a new one will be probably £3-4k or something.
Find out what the typical max range for a 100% one is, then do the math on the SOH, also if it gets cold where you live you probably want to knock a third off that range for winter ( which hits smaller battery cars more).
Then add in some battery degradation over the time you own it say 4-5% a year and roughly work out if it will still do what you need in 4-5 years time etc.
I expect (24kwh) leafs will have battery replaced at 10-12 years old, the old battery will go to home storage and a new one will be probably £3-4k or something.
It will be interesting to see what happens in a few year's time as more EVs come on to the second hand market, and older EVs head towards shed money.
As a buyer of typically of 10 year old cars for about £2500, which I then run until they die (typically about 5-8 years) I do wonder what I will be buying in the future.
Currently a 10 year old car does everything it did when new, but obviously has a higher potential of failure of major components
An EV a 10 years old will not perform as well in terms of range as when it was new. And the cost to replace batteries will (unless the tech changes rapidly) far outweigh the cost of the car. Second-hand spares won't be available as they will be just as limited in their performance.
I'm not sure what will happen, but on scenario might be that the price of EVs crashes to scrap value once the batteries reach a certain age
As a buyer of typically of 10 year old cars for about £2500, which I then run until they die (typically about 5-8 years) I do wonder what I will be buying in the future.
Currently a 10 year old car does everything it did when new, but obviously has a higher potential of failure of major components
An EV a 10 years old will not perform as well in terms of range as when it was new. And the cost to replace batteries will (unless the tech changes rapidly) far outweigh the cost of the car. Second-hand spares won't be available as they will be just as limited in their performance.
I'm not sure what will happen, but on scenario might be that the price of EVs crashes to scrap value once the batteries reach a certain age
boyse7en said:
Currently a 10 year old car does everything it did when new, but obviously has a higher potential of failure of major components
An EV a 10 years old will not perform as well in terms of range as when it was new.
And the cost to replace batteries will (unless the tech changes rapidly) far outweigh the cost of the car. Second-hand spares won't be available as they will be just as limited in their performance.
The difference is that the diagnosis of the condition of a high miles / old ICE powered car is, er, lets just say, a bit hit and miss. The reason a 150,000 mile diesel is worth about £1.50 is because of what MIGHT go wrong. And there is no way of telling when, or how badly. An EV a 10 years old will not perform as well in terms of range as when it was new.
And the cost to replace batteries will (unless the tech changes rapidly) far outweigh the cost of the car. Second-hand spares won't be available as they will be just as limited in their performance.
With a s/h EV, the condition of the most expensive component, the battery, is reported directly by the car to the user. You can see how "worn" the battery is by a simple glance at the dash (or at worst with a cheap OBD scan tool). Therefore, imo, an s/h EV with a good battery will hold it's value much longer than a typical ICE, where the average man on the street takes a risk when buying it second hand/ out of warranty etc.
Also, fundamentally, the battery is not either difficult to replace or complex to repair. Replacements, from aftermarket sources and from crashed EVs will start to become practical as EV volumes rise (just as you can for example buy a pattern (non OEM) exhaust for your BMW for Eurocar parts etc)
Another factor, is that as environmental pressures (especially local air quality and things like City bans etc) and increasing fuel costs drive the adoption of EV's, people will realise that actually they don't need an EV that can do 300 miles when they only drive 7 miles to work and back. At this point, there could (note could) be a firming of prices of short range Gen1 EVs that are still more than capable of doing most peoples commutes, even on a "worn" battery.
Tom74 said:
Ok, I see that the batteries will last longer than 8 years, I guess the question was whether an out of warranty battery massively affects the value, I guess we’ll see in a few years!
I don't see why. An 8 year old ICE is a complex beast with all manner of mechanical things that can be on the brink of an expensive failure. One day they work, then next the car is scrap.Battery can be easily checked, and will continue to fail in a slow and predictable way.
I needed to buy a used car at the weekend and we already have an EV charging point at home so was hoping to buy an electric car. Looked at Leafs and Zoes but my commute is 110 miles round trip and in cold weather neither used models in our budget are a safe bet. Ended up buying a Mk 6 2.0 TDI Golf that manages an indicated 59 mpg on the trip for £7k. The economics for used electric cars aren’t quite there yet.
w1bbles said:
I needed to buy a used car at the weekend and we already have an EV charging point at home so was hoping to buy an electric car. Looked at Leafs and Zoes but my commute is 110 miles round trip and in cold weather neither used models in our budget are a safe bet. Ended up buying a Mk 6 2.0 TDI Golf that manages an indicated 59 mpg on the trip for £7k. The economics for used electric cars aren’t quite there yet.
I’d suggest a daily commute of 110 miles is top 95th percentile. dave_s13 said:
jjwilde said:
Best bet is a Leaf30. You could go for an early Jap24 if you really only drive 50miles, the odd one goes for £3.5k....
Where???Cheapest on auto trader is twice that!!
£7k for an early Leaf is madness, I keep an eye on them on Autotrader / eBay and PH and a lot of them have sat unsold for lengthy periods.
w1bbles said:
I needed to buy a used car at the weekend and we already have an EV charging point at home so was hoping to buy an electric car. Looked at Leafs and Zoes but my commute is 110 miles round trip and in cold weather neither used models in our budget are a safe bet. Ended up buying a Mk 6 2.0 TDI Golf that manages an indicated 59 mpg on the trip for £7k. The economics for used electric cars aren’t quite there yet for my personal circumstances.
Amended for you.There is a huge market out there made up of motorists who may never travel more than 30 miles from their front door in a car, ever. Current gen EVs are perfect for them, some just haven't discovered the idea yet.
Fair point. I wasn’t explicit about the judgement being for my personal circumstances but... if you like to travel a bit at the weekend (which I do) then being limited to a 50 mile radius is a bit limiting. For example, I’m going to Mull at the weekend with the family. We couldn’t drive to Oban from home, ferry to Mull, meal in Ulva, back home again without charging twice on the trip. No reliable infrastructure. In the Golf we’d use half a tank tops.
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