The People's Vote - which way would you vote?

[Sa Calobra]

They have to deal with the question of Italy. It may be a bigger issue than Greece ever was.

[frisbee]

Ghibli said:

Personally I don't know which way it's going to go but I do know that the game of call my bluff is officially over.

The EU are still in a better position for business around the world and the EU because they aren't leaving anything.

As demonstrated by a complete lack of (p)reaction by the rest of the EU to the "deal". Time to face facts, the UK just isn't as important as they like to think they are.

[bitchstewie]

gizlaroc said:

It will be voted down and she can say “we leave with no deal, I tried.”

Perfect.

The EU will then have to move quickly to offer something so the EU businesses don’t crucify them.

I did (and do) wonder if this is (and was) her intention all along.

[don'tbesilly]

bhstewie said:

gizlaroc said:

It will be voted down and she can say “we leave with no deal, I tried.”

Perfect.

The EU will then have to move quickly to offer something so the EU businesses don’t crucify them.

I did (and do) wonder if this is (and was) her intention all along.

It does seem to have some validity to it, if only because there doesn't seem to be any other alternative explanation for why May would seek a path that surely she knows not only risks her own position as PM, it also threatens the future of her own party.

Corbyn and Labour couldn't be any more delighted at May's seemingly kamikazi approach.

[wc98]

bhstewie said:

gizlaroc said:

It will be voted down and she can say “we leave with no deal, I tried.”

Perfect.

The EU will then have to move quickly to offer something so the EU businesses don’t crucify them.

I did (and do) wonder if this is (and was) her intention all along.

it's exactly what is going to happen. no deal will be fine. roll on the uk version of singapore

[psi310398]

wc98 said:

it's exactly what is going to happen. no deal will be fine. roll on the uk version of singapore

In a very short space of time, Singapore has contrived to going from being a moderately important regional entrepôt to be making $10,000 per head more GDP than the UK. It also does rather well on things like universal pension and health provision and social housing.

I really can think of worse examples.

[Sa Calobra]

Labour will vote down ANY deal tabled. They want to trigger a general election within a year of a no deal. They want disafaction etc.

Rather than thinking about the people and what they voted for they know it's their only chance to get in with Corbyn at the helm.

For that reason I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

No deal = fine. We will make it. It'll be rough for a year but we'll exert more influence again one day.

[Helicopter123]

don'tbesilly said:

Corbyn and Labour couldn't be any more delighted at May's seemingly kamikazi approach.

I wonder if the threat of Corbyn is enough to hold the Tory party together though?

May appears to be the only thing standing between the party and all out civil war.

There is no-one else.

[Tankrizzo]

Sa Calobra said:

Labour will vote down ANY deal tabled. They want to trigger a general election within a year of a no deal. They want disafaction etc.

Exactly this, makes me laugh listening to Starmer (who I actually believe is a decent politician) bang on about these bloody 'six tests'. They'll just disagree and oppose for opposition's sake to try and get in power, regardless of whatever damage it will cause.

Corbyn himself must be feeling a little nervous now; he has the best chance in a while of having a good crack at an election but his party are just as divided over Brexit, just not as overtly as the Tories, and stand to inherit a total disaster of a political situation if they become the "anyone but the Tories" vote. They've been flip-flopping this way and that for months trying to blow whichever direction they think public opinion is going, without any concrete Brexit position. It might soon be time for them to put up or shut up.

[Robertj21a]

Sa Calobra said:

Labour will vote down ANY deal tabled. They want to trigger a general election within a year of a no deal. They want disafaction etc.

Rather than thinking about the people and what they voted for they know it's their only chance to get in with Corbyn at the helm.

For that reason I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

No deal = fine. We will make it. It'll be rough for a year but we'll exert more influence again one day.

I think it could be rough for 5-10 years. However, it's still worth it to get out of the EU, deal or no deal.

[Helicopter123]

Tankrizzo said:

Sa Calobra said:

Labour will vote down ANY deal tabled. They want to trigger a general election within a year of a no deal. They want disafaction etc.

Exactly this, makes me laugh listening to Starmer (who I actually believe is a decent politician) bang on about these bloody 'six tests'. They'll just disagree and oppose for opposition's sake to try and get in power, regardless of whatever damage it will cause.

Corbyn himself must be feeling a little nervous now; he has the best chance in a while of having a good crack at an election but his party are just as divided over Brexit, just not as overtly as the Tories, and stand to inherit a total disaster of a political situation if they become the "anyone but the Tories" vote. They've been flip-flopping this way and that for months trying to blow whichever direction they think public opinion is going, without any concrete Brexit position. It might soon be time for them to put up or shut up.

Labour are divided, but much less so than the Tories in that the split is not down the middle.

They also benefit from these splits being far less visible to the general public on a day to day basis.

The fact that they are prepared to consider a second referendum has also defused tensions to a degree.

You are right, in that they need to for a coherent position, but this will be much easier to do once the Tories decide exactly which stake they are going to destroy the party on.

[psi310398]

If MPs are dim enough to pass this 'deal', what money on a successful Farage comeback attacking all establishment politicians with the following simple message?



I can't see Labour feeling much more comfortable in its northern heartlands whatever position it takes on the proposal.

[Helicopter123]

psi310398 said:

If MPs are dim enough to pass this 'deal', what money on a successful Farage comeback attacking all establishment politicians with the following simple message?
.

Last I heard UKIP were e-mailing members proposing a referendum on whether to allow #freetommy into the party?

It's becoming the BNP 2.0

Not sure even Farage would touch it with a barge pole

[Piha]

psi310398 said:

If MPs are dim enough to pass this 'deal', what money on a successful Farage comeback attacking all establishment politicians with the following simple message?



I can't see Labour feeling much more comfortable in its northern heartlands whatever position it takes on the proposal.

FARAGE????

That one trick pony has had his day. His Leave means Leave campaign is an utter joke. Dismal attendances and offers little of substance.

The only way to get this deal accepted is with a Peoples Vote, as politicians of all flavours appear to be against TM's deal.

I didn't think Leave could have achieved a decent deal from the EU from the outset, at least not as good as we have at the moment.

[Trophy Husband]

Sa Calobra said:

We voted knowing that there could be no deal on the table.

What will annoy me is the EU has open fishing access to UK waters.

Small fish in the grand scheme of things but I think it's important.

Indeed, given that all of the fishermen I know here on the North Wales coast voted leave and thought that the exact opposite would happen.

[psi310398]

Piha said:

FARAGE????

That one trick pony has had his day. His Leave means Leave campaign is an utter joke. Dismal attendances and offers little of substance.

The only way to get this deal accepted is with a Peoples Vote, as politicians of all flavours appear to be against TM's deal.

I didn't think Leave could have achieved a decent deal from the EU from the outset, at least not as good as we have at the moment.

We'll see. And if isn't Farage, it'll be someone else.

The 'betrayal of the people by the vested interests' card is a simple and, in this case credible, one to play. I imagine very helpfully aided by video of those braying, entitled 'people's vote' protestors, with their Waitrose hampers, moaning about the difficulty of finding Bulgarian nannies and the daahling Polish plumber having gone home ...

It clearly doesn't appeal to you, but it has appealed to large number of voters of whatever stripe in large parts of the country and will again.

The other thing I think Westminster doesn't get is the innate patriotism of the average voter - to be seen to be conniving in a national humiliation will be noxious for their re-election prospects.

[Piha]

psi310398 said:

Piha said:

FARAGE????

That one trick pony has had his day. His Leave means Leave campaign is an utter joke. Dismal attendances and offers little of substance.

The only way to get this deal accepted is with a Peoples Vote, as politicians of all flavours appear to be against TM's deal.

I didn't think Leave could have achieved a decent deal from the EU from the outset, at least not as good as we have at the moment.

We'll see. And if isn't Farage, it'll be someone else.

The 'betrayal of the people by the vested interests' card is a simple and, in this case credible, one to play. I imagine very helpfully aided by video of those braying, entitled 'people's vote' protestors, with their Waitrose hampers, moaning about the difficulty of finding Bulgarian nannies and the daahling Polish plumber having gone home ...

It clearly doesn't appeal to you, but it has appealed to large number of voters of whatever stripe in large parts of the country and will again.

The other thing I think Westminster doesn't get is the innate patriotism of the average voter - to be seen to be conniving in a national humiliation will be noxious for their re-election prospects.

Innate Patriotism of the average voter?

I completely agree.....!!!!!!!!

Most Remain voters tried to understand the damage being done to the UK by trying to leave the EU. The deal we have with the EU is of great benefit to the UK. We are throwing that relationship away due to a litany of false promises and undeliverable pledges!!!!!!!!!

Leave is comparable to a religious cult.

[psi310398]

Piha said:

Innate Patriotism of the average voter?

I completely agree.....!!!!!!!!

Most Remain voters tried to understand the damage being done to the UK by trying to leave the EU. The deal we have with the EU is of great benefit to the UK. We are throwing that relationship away due to a litany of false promises and undeliverable pledges!!!!!!!!!

Leave is comparable to a religious cult.

Erm. Remain is much more comparable to a religious cult. The word cult can be broadly defined as "formal religious veneration," "a system of religious beliefs and its body of adherents", "great devotion to a person or idea" as well as "persons united by devotion or allegiance to an artistic or intellectual movement or figure."

If we look at the ten generally accepted warning signs of a cult, the EU/Remain side seems a much closer fit:

• Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

• No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

• No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement.

• Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

• There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

• Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

• There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader.

• Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

• The group/leader is always right.

• The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

More projection, Piha?

[Helicopter123]

psi310398 said:

Erm. Remain is much more comparable to a religious cult. The word cult can be broadly defined as "formal religious veneration," "a system of religious beliefs and its body of adherents", "great devotion to a person or idea" as well as "persons united by devotion or allegiance to an artistic or intellectual movement or figure."

If we look at the ten generally accepted warning signs of a cult, the EU/Remain side seems a much closer fit:

• Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

• No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

• No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement.

• Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

• There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

• Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

• There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader.

• Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

• The group/leader is always right.

• The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

More projection, Piha?

Hello?

[psi310398]

Helicopter123 said:

Hello?

I'm quite happy to hear, debate and answer contrary opinions.

I appreciate the same courtesy from others.