Jamie Oliver

[andymadmak]

alfaman said:

His overseas restaurants don’t seem that great ... reputation of ‘jamies’ in Singapore is an overpriced tourist restaurant serving mediocre to average food.

I ate there just a couple of weeks ago - it was pretty poor tbh

[Murph7355]

jakesmith said:

Baby Shark doo doo doo doo said:

Wow, never thought I’d see the day whena politician would speak the truth

The restaurants were Harvester quality food for very high prices.

That's rubbish, sorry. I worked with them professionally for a short period and there was real pride in the brand and passion for the cooking and ingredients at restaurant level
It was decent quality stuff and they expanded too quickly and fell victim to falling demand.

It's not rubbish. There is scope for you to both be correct in your second sentence - they expanded too quickly.

The restaurants were too inconsistent. I ate in the Cambridge one twice and had a nice experience - lunch with the family so expectations weren't the same as if it had been the evening just with the Mrs...but it was good enough that we went back.

Canary Wharf? Not so great. Poor service, average food.

Expanding too quickly seems to be the bane of most of these chains. It's not possible to guarantee the same passion/quality if you ramp up too quickly. I'd argue there gets a point where it simply becomes impossible full stop.

As for "demand"...well that impacts everyone. Only the best survive, and if you've expanded too quickly you're going to feel that pain more in all likelihood.

Blame 2008 on the fall in demand - we're still far from over that little blip in history.

I also think people are going out less/not drinking as much/eating more healthily now. I have kids now so go out quite a bit less than I used to in my 20s and 30s. And if the people I see in my working life are anything to go by, those in their 20s and 30s now seem less inclined to go out than I was - they seem to be settling down sooner or doing other stuff.

[T-195]

alfaman said:

His overseas restaurants don’t seem that great ... reputation of ‘jamies’ in Singapore is an overpriced tourist restaurant serving mediocre to average food.

Imagine that!

[Andy Zarse]

jakesmith said:

Baby Shark doo doo doo doo said:

Wow, never thought I’d see the day whena politician would speak the truth

The restaurants were Harvester quality food for very high prices.

That's rubbish, sorry. I worked with them professionally for a short period and there was real pride in the brand and passion for the cooking and ingredients at restaurant level
It was decent quality stuff and they expanded too quickly and fell victim to falling demand.

I went once to a Jamie's, it was frankly overpriced crap.

Have you asked yourself why there was "falling demand"? I mean, are people not eating out anymore? Are other chains not prospering on the High St?

Or did Jamie's customers have a less than satisfactory experience for a variety of reasons and simply decide to eat elsewhere in future, pausing only to give the brand a proper rinsing on Tripadvisor?

Jamie's failed for one very simple reason; the market decided not to patronise it. End of. ASk yourself why.

[The Surveyor]

Murph7355 said:

….. There is scope for you to both be correct in your second sentence - they expanded too quickly.
......

it wasn't just them that expanded too quickly, all the chains did the same into an ever-more saturated market. With a consistent demand, every time a new Carlucci's, Prezzo, Jamies, Bella Italia, Ask, Zizzi or any other similar offer opens in a town, their slice of the same spend decreases. With the likes of Prezzo closing nearly 100 outlets last year and a third of the Carluccio outlets closing at the same time, the difficulties Jamie Oliver had were not exclusive.

[CABC]

and pubs have improved their offering dramatically in recent years.

[Murph7355]

The Surveyor said:

Murph7355 said:

….. There is scope for you to both be correct in your second sentence - they expanded too quickly.
......

it wasn't just them that expanded too quickly, all the chains did the same into an ever-more saturated market. With a consistent demand, every time a new Carlucci's, Prezzo, Jamies, Bella Italia, Ask, Zizzi or any other similar offer opens in a town, their slice of the same spend decreases. With the likes of Prezzo closing nearly 100 outlets last year and a third of the Carluccio outlets closing at the same time, the difficulties Jamie Oliver had were not exclusive.

Totally agree (though the thread was about Jamie's hence me not mentioning the others ).

[Murph7355]

CABC said:

and pubs have improved their offering dramatically in recent years.

Pubs are struggling too IME/IMO.

[Cold]

Italian food in the UK. Pasta with a white wine and garlic sauce (often too much garlic). Only the name above the door changes.

[anonymous-user]

Andy Zarse said:

I went once to a Jamie's, it was frankly overpriced crap.

Have you asked yourself why there was "falling demand"? I mean, are people not eating out anymore? Are other chains not prospering on the High St?

Or did Jamie's customers have a less than satisfactory experience for a variety of reasons and simply decide to eat elsewhere in future, pausing only to give the brand a proper rinsing on Tripadvisor?

Jamie's failed for one very simple reason; the market decided not to patronise it. End of. ASk yourself why.

The casual dining market is on its arse.

Hundred of unit closures over the past 18 months and more to come including at some very well known businesses.

JO’s collapse wasn’t by any stretch unique and in the broad scheme of things was smallish beer with the business’ total closure amounting to less jobs and units than some others’ rationalisations. It just attracts more headlines given the personality and a good bit of old fashioned tall poppy pruning.

[egor110]

Cold said:

Italian food in the UK. Pasta with a white wine and garlic sauce (often too much garlic). Only the name above the door changes.

You need to search out some little family owned places .

[Cold]

egor110 said:

Cold said:

Italian food in the UK. Pasta with a white wine and garlic sauce (often too much garlic). Only the name above the door changes.

You need to search out some little family owned places .

Indeed, who doesn't like chunks of mozzarella and half a beef tomato?

[Zigster]

Brooking10 said:

The casual dining market is on its arse.

Hundred of unit closures over the past 18 months and more to come including at some very well known businesses.

JO’s collapse wasn’t by any stretch unique and in the broad scheme of things was smallish beer with the business’ total closure amounting to less jobs and units than some others’ rationalisations. It just attracts more headlines given the personality and a good bit of old fashioned tall poppy pruning.

Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.

The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.

[jakesmith]

Zigster said:

Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.

The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.

So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!?

[Andy Zarse]

Brooking10 said:

Andy Zarse said:

I went once to a Jamie's, it was frankly overpriced crap.

Have you asked yourself why there was "falling demand"? I mean, are people not eating out anymore? Are other chains not prospering on the High St?

Or did Jamie's customers have a less than satisfactory experience for a variety of reasons and simply decide to eat elsewhere in future, pausing only to give the brand a proper rinsing on Tripadvisor?

Jamie's failed for one very simple reason; the market decided not to patronise it. End of. ASk yourself why.

The casual dining market is on its arse.

Hundred of unit closures over the past 18 months and more to come including at some very well known businesses.

JO’s collapse wasn’t by any stretch unique and in the broad scheme of things was smallish beer with the business’ total closure amounting to less jobs and units than some others’ rationalisations. It just attracts more headlines given the personality and a good bit of old fashioned tall poppy pruning.

On the contrary, this is classical market economics in action. Casual dining (and I am assuming you're including Jamie's in this description?) has never been more popular. More and more people eating out more often. A generation ago eating out was a treat. Now it's mainstream. The market recognised this and a plethora of chains popped up to fill demand. And they literally popped up everywhere. Some of them were even pretty good, to start with at least. But what the managements didn't factor in were changes in people's tastes. Italian food has become mundane. There's more exiting and new cuisines to try. In essence i contend that the market for italian food stayed static at best; the options to eat it expanded hugely. Consequently there's only so much trade to go around and this is why restaurant chains are failing.

I still have to queue to get a lunch table at my local Wagamama or even Wahaca but you can stroll straight into the Pizza Express/Zizzi/Prezzo/Ask/you name your identikit pseudo-Italian eatery and you tell them which table you'd like to sit at. The problems in the casual dining market, such as they are, are the out-dated business models they still rely upon.The fact of the matter is there are way too many Italian restaurants compared to the number punters, combined with high overheads, a mediocre product at an uncompetitive price. Result; misery.

Little of this is the customers' fault, nor is it the fault of the government, Brexit or any other blame deflection mechanism. Creative destruction in action.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Monday 19th August 13:26

[oyster]

jakesmith said:

Zigster said:

Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.

The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.

So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!?

Exactly. Never ceases to amaze me how PH'ers use outlier, anecdotal samples to emphasise a point.

[BrabusMog]

oyster said:

jakesmith said:

Zigster said:

Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.

The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.

So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!?

Exactly. Never ceases to amaze me how PH'ers use outlier, anecdotal samples to emphasise a point.

I thought it was a piss take lol

[Zigster]

jakesmith said:

Zigster said:

Exactly. The high street is on its arse for shopping and mid-range eating is in exactly the same place.

The top-end restaurants are doing well; the chicken shacks and MacDonalds are doing well; the competitors of JO are all really struggling. We ate at Pizza Express a couple of weeks ago, for the first time in ages, because I had some Nectar vouchers about to expire. It was £100 for the four of us, including one child still on the “piccolo” menu, no starters, and just a soft drink each. Without the vouchers, it would have felt a bit too expensive for mediocre food and I’m not sure when we’ll next visit.

So 3 pizzas for say £13-50 each, piccolo menu for £8 what did the other £50 go on!?

I don’t have the receipt anymore, but I looked at it at the time and it was correct. Drinks at about £3 each, pudding x3 at about £7 each, and I think there might have been a couple of espressos as well. Pizzas are actually more like £15 now. Add a tip, because the staff were working hard even if the food was average. Bingo: £101.40.

[Zigster]

For those saying it was a pisstake, my point is only that JO’s getting a lot of flak for being overpriced and average but there are plenty of other chains out there which are just as expensive and no better quality. It was hardly extreme.

[anonymous-user]

Andy Zarse said:

On the contrary, this is classical market economics in action. Casual dining (and I am assuming you're including Jamie's in this description?) has never been more popular. More and more people eating out more often. A generation ago eating out was a treat. Now it's mainstream. The market recognised this and a plethora of chains popped up to fill demand. And they literally popped up everywhere. Some of them were even pretty good, to start with at least. But what the managements didn't factor in were changes in people's tastes. Italian food has become mundane. There's more exiting and new cuisines to try. In essence i contend that the market for italian food stayed static at best; the options to eat it expanded hugely. Consequently there's only so much trade to go around and this is why restaurant chains are failing.

I still have to queue to get a lunch table at my local Wagamama or even Wahaca but you can stroll straight into the Pizza Express/Zizzi/Prezzo/Ask/you name your identikit pseudo-Italian eatery and you tell them which table you'd like to sit at. The problems in the casual dining market, such as they are, are the out-dated business models they still rely upon.The fact of the matter is there are way too many Italian restaurants compared to the number punters, combined with high overheads, a mediocre product at an uncompetitive price. Result; misery.

Little of this is the customers' fault, nor is it the fault of the government, Brexit or any other blame deflection mechanism. Creative destruction in action.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 19th August 13:26

I agree that the business models are at the heart of the problem

The market as a whole though is definitely a double headed beast.

Overall spend plus input costs and therefore profits are very much challenged irrespective of cuisine.

Totally agree that the more defined the offering the better the customer responds and yes the anglicised Italian sub sector is one we fell out of love with

There’s significant distress in the sector as a whole and a lot of caution in terms of expansion.

Wahahca is great but it’s very London centric with a few high end metropolitan sites outwith the capital. Where it goes next strategically is a big decision.

Wags is a brilliant business (and IMO great food) but under its new ownership )who bought it largely to distract from the underlying issues in their core business) it has several challenges ahead.