Vegan extremists

Author
Discussion

wsurfa

2,371 posts

133 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Francis85 said:
Sausages and local butchers are not a good mix. Stick to the big names at the supermarket.


The 2 local butchers I use could probably name the animals they used for their sausages, as well as being happy to make mince of any type in front of you if you want. The also have ageing cabinets on view as well as details of the herds/flocks they use, one of them keeping their own farm as well.

Big names at the supermarket seemed to ensure you got horse meat as a secret bonus, rather than quality.

Kaelic

2,619 posts

139 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
My sister married a farmer and the first thing she did was name his herd of aberdeen angus ..... this was year 1

year 2 onwards she doesnt name them after her almost emotional breakdown when they all went to market biggrin

She has toughened up some now and only names her breeding stock, she has even had to take a sheep's life rather than let it suffer. City girl come farmer after 10 years or so.

Father was a butcher when we were younger and he took real pride in his meat, only the best went into his burgers and sausages. Used to have a huge mixing bowl he would mix up all the ingredients for all sorts like haggis, blackpudding, lorne sausage, burgers, steaklet things etc.... As kids myself and my brother would work in the shop, me washing the white plastic plates and throwing sawdust around, my brother skinning the rabbits etc.. I remember going to the slaughterhouse with my dad very early one morning, where he showed me the production line and where food came from, how it was treated etc...

Willy Nilly

12,171 posts

105 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
hucumber said:
I'm vegan and even I think this sort of 'activism' is ridiculous. Alienating people and then expecting them to come round to your way of thinking isn't going to get you anywhere other than looking like a bit of a prat
I would fight until my last breath for your right to be a vegan even though I don't agree with you. Most people would probably healthier if they ate a little less meat and more fresh fruit and veg.

You're right about that sort of activism, all it does is turn people off the argument, they are just bullying people into not eating meat and their tactics for the meat industry to me is pretty much terrorism. Much of the pro-vegan propaganda I see about animal production is at best ill-informed nonsense ranging up to out right lies.

Halb

46,068 posts

121 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
RemyMartin81D said:
How do you know human isn't the tastiest meat?
mmmm, brains.....lick
everyone draws a line in the sand somewhere. biggrin

ReaperCushions

3,514 posts

122 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
I think this smacks of the whole ignorance of where meat comes from.

The idea that you're weird because you take some involvement before raising an animal ahead of butchery is absurd. Good food, from ethical sources is cared for. Someone has to birth it, feed it, shelter it and protect it from infection and the weather. You may not give it a name but it's still something you are emotionally invested into.

Alternatively, you can just believe that all your meat was raised in the polystyrene dish in the supermarket.
I disagree, I don't think its ignorance I think its a desire to stay away from the more 'mechanical' parts of the process.

I know that I need oil changes in my car, but I don't need to stand by and watch my mechanic do it and get involved. I trust that someone is paid to do it all for me, to save me getting my hands dirty.

In my family we eat meat, we all know where it comes from and we are all appreciative that there is a business and process involved in getting it from the field on to my plate. But I don't need to take my kids along to feed, love and cherish Trevor the Turkey for the few months leading up to his death and then eating him. In my opinion, that is putting my kids under unnecessary emotional distress.

I think someone else used an example above of someone becoming a farmer, naming the herd and then being upset when they were sent to the slaughterhouse. The next year they didn't name them or get attached and treated it like a business/process. This is exactly what I mean.... just because we eat meat, doesn't mean we are being ignorant to the process, but it also doesn't mean we need to see it and get emotionally attached.


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Derek Smith

32,571 posts

186 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Resolutionary said:
For what it's worth, I went vegetarian on January 1st of this year after 30 odd years of enjoying pork, beef, game meat, heck pretty much anything I fancied. My primary concern is what exactly goes into our meat, the conditions in which animals are raised to be meat products, and thus what corners are cut in the interest of profits.
I take your point about the way animals are raised and treated. We buy much of our stuff from a local butcher on a farm and the family serve in the shop. They allow people to go to the farm if they wish, and a couple of people I know have done so, and they say that there are no restrictive cages. The meat, especially the chicken, tastes much better. I know that you never know but they do produce some lovely meat.

There was a complaint of noise from the back of a pub on the outskirts of a village. The chap was shooting rabbits, pheasants and other fowl with a shotgun. Not of itself illegal I know, but these were already dead and he was putting shot into them to suggest that they were wild. There was a notice on the menu to say beware of the shot as it was difficult to remove all of it.

There's as much foreign chemical gubbins in vegetables as there is in meat. It is not, as many suggest, that much better for the environment. Vast monocultures denude the countryside of diversity to a greater extent than sheep and cows do.

I was obliged to police a demonstration against export of sheep. There might have been other animals but I only got sheep. The lorries stopped before the demo for the drivers to be briefed and the sheep were quite calm, much more so than I thought they would be. Once they got to the screaming hord they became distressed. They would try and move away from the sides but every other animal was doing that as well. They would evacuate in their panic. Not nice.

One of the women in the demo was a writer for TV programmes. She was shouting away, accusing us of disturbing the animals. The PC beside me said:'Is she trying to be funny?' I said, 'That's what I wonder when I see her television show [name escapes]' We started laughing. Not the thing to do with hyped up demonstrators.

The women - they were mainly female demonstrators - would spit at us. It was enough to convince me that there was little sign of their claimed higher morals.


Halb

46,068 posts

121 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
There's as much foreign chemical gubbins in vegetables as there is in meat. It is not, as many suggest, that much better for the environment. Vast monocultures denude the countryside of diversity to a greater extent than sheep and cows do.
what chemical gubbins?

roadsmash

664 posts

8 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
I am open minded.

But my main issue with vegetarianism and veganism is all the wildlife that is killed when the fields of veg and the like are planted.

If we all became vegans, wildlife would still end up killed.

Not just by food plantation construction either; roads, cars (this is PH after all), and general building... is always going to end up killing animals.

Changing the way we eat is just the tip of the iceberg. What is the point?

Happy to debate this?

Halb

46,068 posts

121 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
roadsmash said:
I am open minded.
But my main issue with vegetarianism and veganism is all the wildlife that is killed when the fields of veg and the like are planted.
If we all became vegans, wildlife would still end up killed.
Not just by food plantation construction either; roads, cars (this is PH after all), and general building... is always going to end up killing animals.
Changing the way we eat is just the tip of the iceberg. What is the point?
Happy to debate this?
it's an ancillary process that occurs despite the goal, it isn't the goal. ANimals will always die if one wants to eat meat, but it can be decreased if the goal is to eat plant matter...of course fake meat may change this

Derek Smith

32,571 posts

186 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Resolutionary said:
For what it's worth, I went vegetarian on January 1st of this year after 30 odd years of enjoying pork, beef, game meat, heck pretty much anything I fancied. My primary concern is what exactly goes into our meat, the conditions in which animals are raised to be meat products, and thus what corners are cut in the interest of profits.
I meant to ask if you eat fish as I note that it is not included in your list. I know catholics don't view it as meat. I eat fish three or four times a week, not for moral reasons, but because I like it.

Whilst I would expect that being caught in a net is not a pleasant experience, nor is being eaten by bigger fish, which would be the end of life scenario for most of the fish. I know it is trying to justify an action but I think the argument is sound.

I live near Newhaven and there's a fish shop on the west quay that sells a delightful range of freshly caught fish. Highly recommended. They taste better than farmed fish in the main. Trout, when cooked without garnish, is delightful. I remember great cod steaks in my youth, with sheep-sized joints in the fish shop. It is a bit seasonal, but they freeze their own fish for those who don't mind. I don't care what they say; I can tell the difference.

I can understand, and to a degree sympathise (not enough to stop me eating it though) with people who don't eat farmed animals. Fish, though, bemuses me. Fish based Italian cuisine is enough to justify the journey.


LDN

6,050 posts

141 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
roadsmash said:
I am open minded.

But my main issue with vegetarianism and veganism is all the wildlife that is killed when the fields of veg and the like are planted.

If we all became vegans, wildlife would still end up killed.

Not just by food plantation construction either; roads, cars (this is PH after all), and general building... is always going to end up killing animals.

Changing the way we eat is just the tip of the iceberg. What is the point?

Happy to debate this?
Not sure if you’re serious? Millions of animals being bred into existence for the sole purpose of being intensively farmed and then killed; is related to wildlife in what way?

The point is that; by reducing meat consumption en masse, the demand goes down and so to does the ‘production’. Animals wouldn’t be bred into existence in the first place...

AMG V12

22 posts

32 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
roadsmash said:
I am open minded.

But my main issue with vegetarianism and veganism is all the wildlife that is killed when the fields of veg and the like are planted.

If we all became vegans, wildlife would still end up killed.

Not just by food plantation construction either; roads, cars (this is PH after all), and general building... is always going to end up killing animals.

Changing the way we eat is just the tip of the iceberg. What is the point?

Happy to debate this?
Surely the point is to reduce the number of animals suffering/being killed? The number of animals killed by accidents on roads or in fields must be miniscule compared to the enormous worldwide meat industry?

roadsmash

664 posts

8 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Understand and appreciate points raised in response.

I am open to education on the subject.

Don’t flame me. biglaugh

ReaperCushions

3,514 posts

122 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
roadsmash said:


But my main issue with vegetarianism and veganism is all the wildlife that is killed when the fields of veg and the like are planted.

If we all became vegans, wildlife would still end up killed.
This has to be trolling, right? Please tell me this isn't real.

Ruskie

2,723 posts

138 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
roadsmash said:
Understand and appreciate points raised in response.

I am open to education on the subject.

Don’t flame me. biglaugh
Two starting points.

Cowspiracy on Netflix then Dominion on YouTube.

If you can watch Dominion and not have a shred of emotion or guilt then fair play.

LDN

6,050 posts

141 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
roadsmash said:
Understand and appreciate points raised in response.

I am open to education on the subject.

Don’t flame me. biglaugh
Fair play.

Basically; animals are artificially inseminated; bred into existence to be killed. There used to be a hilarious argument that; the world would be overrun with pigs and cows if we didn’t eat them all... of course, ignoring he fact; they’d not be here if there was no demand in the first place. They wouldn’t have been bred into existence.

Intensive farms are needed to service our species; make no mistake; there’s nothing natural’ about one species breast feeding from another; or millions of animals having to be kept in crates / cages / pens because of a lack of space for them all; and then the space needed for the food they need. The planet cannot sustain the current situation; as well, humans are waking up to the health issues related to meat consumption and so it seems that a trend is emerging; a necessary trend.


roadsmash

664 posts

8 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Ruskie said:
roadsmash said:
Understand and appreciate points raised in response.

I am open to education on the subject.

Don’t flame me. biglaugh
Two starting points.

Cowspiracy on Netflix then Dominion on YouTube.

If you can watch Dominion and not have a shred of emotion or guilt then fair play.
Will give both a watch, thanks.

StevieBee

7,134 posts

193 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Francis85 said:
Sausages and local butchers are not a good mix. Stick to the big names at the supermarket.
You're going to the wrong butchers.

It's normally top grade meat but unattractive cuts that wouldn't sell 'off the tray'. Bit of seasoning and that's it. The supermarket mass produced ones will have all manner of bulking ingredients.

That said, I could murder a Saveloy right now - and that's just a plastic tube of hooves, anus and lips.


Willy Nilly

12,171 posts

105 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
LDN said:
Fair play.

Basically; animals are artificially inseminated; bred into existence to be killed. There used to be a hilarious argument that; the world would be overrun with pigs and cows if we didn’t eat them all... of course, ignoring he fact; they’d not be here if there was no demand in the first place. They wouldn’t have been bred into existence.

Intensive farms are needed to service our species; make no mistake; there’s nothing natural’ about one species breast feeding from another; or millions of animals having to be kept in crates / cages / pens because of a lack of space for them all; and then the space needed for the food they need. The planet cannot sustain the current situation; as well, humans are waking up to the health issues related to meat consumption and so it seems that a trend is emerging; a necessary trend.
Some farm animals are artificially inseminated. The reason for doing it is you have access to a huge gene pool rather than just the bull/boar/ram you have on site. Whatever it is you are inseminating won't conceive unless she is in season/heat whatever you want to call it. As a rule, the conception rates where AI is used are generally a little lower than natural service. This is because the bull/boar/ram is an expert in the particular field and no matter how good you animal husbandry and heat detection is, the bull is better. Trouble is, they do carry STDs and some of them can be a handful, particularly in the case of dairy bulls which are known to be quite savage. If your bull happens to be a 1 tonne + Charolais, you'll likely AI you heifers so they don't literally get squashed.

Virtually no sheep will be AI'd.
Virtually no beef cattle will be AI'd.
Quite a lot, but not all dairy cows will be AI'd.
Virtually no outdoor pigs will be AI'd
Some indoor pigs will be AI'd.

The breastfeeding analogy is nonsense. Ants do farm and lots of plants and animals have parasitic relationships with other plants and animals. No other animals drink not to quench thirst but to get pissed. Not many other animals drive cars or have been into space either.

There are some hens kept in cages aside from that, you cage/crates comment is breathtakingly ignorant.

Sheep are kept almost exclusively outside and kept extensively.

Years ago, some pigs were put in farrowing crates while they were nursing their piglets, these were banned years ago. Pigs are generally kept inside, apart from outdoor pigs, but mostly in straw yards where they can oink around and do pig stuff.

Most beef cattle will spend the summer in the fields then will be brought in for winter. Only today I saw a post on a farming page on Facebook showing a herd of beef cattle patiently waiting at the field gate to be let into the sheds because they were fed up with being outside in the rain.

When dad had his dairy cows he couldn't wait to kick them out into the field in the spring. I think now a lot of dairy cows are house all year around, but they're free to wander about and do cow stuff as they please.

Housing livestock is not about lack of space, it is about being better able to take care of them. Dring the winter they also make too much mess of the land.

There are various rule and regulations around transporting livestock regarding density, travel times, rest periods etc. None of which see to apply to air trave for people.





LDN

6,050 posts

141 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Willy Nilly said:
LDN said:
Fair play.

Basically; animals are artificially inseminated; bred into existence to be killed. There used to be a hilarious argument that; the world would be overrun with pigs and cows if we didn’t eat them all... of course, ignoring he fact; they’d not be here if there was no demand in the first place. They wouldn’t have been bred into existence.

Intensive farms are needed to service our species; make no mistake; there’s nothing natural’ about one species breast feeding from another; or millions of animals having to be kept in crates / cages / pens because of a lack of space for them all; and then the space needed for the food they need. The planet cannot sustain the current situation; as well, humans are waking up to the health issues related to meat consumption and so it seems that a trend is emerging; a necessary trend.
Some farm animals are artificially inseminated. The reason for doing it is you have access to a huge gene pool rather than just the bull/boar/ram you have on site. Whatever it is you are inseminating won't conceive unless she is in season/heat whatever you want to call it. As a rule, the conception rates where AI is used are generally a little lower than natural service. This is because the bull/boar/ram is an expert in the particular field and no matter how good you animal husbandry and heat detection is, the bull is better. Trouble is, they do carry STDs and some of them can be a handful, particularly in the case of dairy bulls which are known to be quite savage. If your bull happens to be a 1 tonne + Charolais, you'll likely AI you heifers so they don't literally get squashed.

Virtually no sheep will be AI'd.
Virtually no beef cattle will be AI'd.
Quite a lot, but not all dairy cows will be AI'd.
Virtually no outdoor pigs will be AI'd
Some indoor pigs will be AI'd.

The breastfeeding analogy is nonsense. Ants do farm and lots of plants and animals have parasitic relationships with other plants and animals. No other animals drink not to quench thirst but to get pissed. Not many other animals drive cars or have been into space either.

There are some hens kept in cages aside from that, you cage/crates comment is breathtakingly ignorant.

Sheep are kept almost exclusively outside and kept extensively.

Years ago, some pigs were put in farrowing crates while they were nursing their piglets, these were banned years ago. Pigs are generally kept inside, apart from outdoor pigs, but mostly in straw yards where they can oink around and do pig stuff.

Most beef cattle will spend the summer in the fields then will be brought in for winter. Only today I saw a post on a farming page on Facebook showing a herd of beef cattle patiently waiting at the field gate to be let into the sheds because they were fed up with being outside in the rain.

When dad had his dairy cows he couldn't wait to kick them out into the field in the spring. I think now a lot of dairy cows are house all year around, but they're free to wander about and do cow stuff as they please.

Housing livestock is not about lack of space, it is about being better able to take care of them. Dring the winter they also make too much mess of the land.

There are various rule and regulations around transporting livestock regarding density, travel times, rest periods etc. None of which see to apply to air trave for people.



Intensive farming has been on the rise. For a few reasons. The picture of animals roaming freely before the slaughterhouse are true for only a part of the animal livestock population. It’s a picture you’ve painted as it seems familiar to you; but the bigger picture is nothing like that. As well; my analogy, despite protestations is basically true; humans have breast-fed from another species for a long time; myself included. Animals not driving cars is a bizarre parallel. It’s true that species can have parasitic relationships of course; but, never the less, what I said stands.

Aside from it all; studies from all corners link meat to cancer, heart disease and more. The environment is suffering due to intensive farming practices the World over; it’s not propaganda. These issues linked with a growing consciousness and awarenesses are contributing to veganism being one of the fastest growing social movements. It’s also becoming the new macho; “eat what rhinos eat” body builders are growing in numbers where there is a change in mood; vegan being seen as strong and macho; meat eating seen as weak and tainted. Attitudes have changed immensely the last few years.

Animal agriculture will, not in our lifetime, be studied in history books and looked upon unkindly. Lab grown; so called ‘pure’ meat will become the economically and ethical norm’. It’s a while off but millions of dollars are going into this and it will become a reality.