Vegan extremists

[Digga]

Cause and effect, on macro terms is simple; too many humans. That's the prime factor. All other 'solutions' merely skirt the issue.

People used to dismiss Malthusian theories, citing 'advances' in farming and industry. By now, those counter arguments ought to be well and truly dismissed.

[otolith]

LDN said:

But the mathematics globally would mean less plant crops and so less land fertilised and sprayed to hell; as you put it. I think there’s still this idea that if meat consumption declines then plant output would have to increase due to something needing to replace the livestock. Which is true; but the land needed to grow food for livestock is a multiple of what is actually needed for the relative calorie / protein output.

If you’re talking about the British countryside, solely, then; yes; farmers or land owners will want to monetise their land and that’s on them. I have never asked farmers to hold my hand, when I created my businesses: nor do I ask them to hold my hand with changing consumer trends, attitudes, exchange rates or government interference. It’s another debate entirely; and an evolution of the original debate regarding environmental impact... of which, our government seems to have agreed with my assertions.

It's not the idea that plant output would have to increase to replace meat, it's the idea that farmers would do something to chase new markets. They're not going to walk away. So the land being used to grow animal food would end up being used to grow biofuels or fibres and so would the pasture.

[LDN]

Digga said:

Cause and effect, on macro terms is simple; too many humans. That's the prime factor. All other 'solutions' merely skirt the issue.

People used to dismiss Malthusian theories, citing 'advances' in farming and industry. By now, those counter arguments ought to be well and truly dismissed.

“Too many humans” ..... followed by “all other solutions skirt the issue”. What is the solution that you are proposing?

When there is a massive problem with animal agriculture; that means that numbers need to be cut immensely; and the consensus, even amongst most of the meat eaters here on this thread, is that people need to consume less meat... there’s quite an obvious solution: less meat. Healthier, better for the environment and less animals born into / living in abject conditions. Of course, vegan and vegetarian diets take that solution one step further.

[FourWheelDrift]

[LDN]

otolith said:

LDN said:

But the mathematics globally would mean less plant crops and so less land fertilised and sprayed to hell; as you put it. I think there’s still this idea that if meat consumption declines then plant output would have to increase due to something needing to replace the livestock. Which is true; but the land needed to grow food for livestock is a multiple of what is actually needed for the relative calorie / protein output.

If you’re talking about the British countryside, solely, then; yes; farmers or land owners will want to monetise their land and that’s on them. I have never asked farmers to hold my hand, when I created my businesses: nor do I ask them to hold my hand with changing consumer trends, attitudes, exchange rates or government interference. It’s another debate entirely; and an evolution of the original debate regarding environmental impact... of which, our government seems to have agreed with my assertions.

It's not the idea that plant output would have to increase to replace meat, it's the idea that farmers would do something to chase new markets. They're not going to walk away. So the land being used to grow animal food would end up being used to grow biofuels or fibres and so would the pasture.

Yes, they’d still want to monetise their land. It’s another debate and without actually knowing what it is they’d do; hard to gauge the results of that.

Like I’ve said before. Debating / deciding on what farmers would do if legislation or consumer trends changed; is an odd one to me, as it contributes to this idea that they need to have their hand held. I know that’s not what your asking specifically... but we’d have to know what each land owner would do, in each individual case, to gauge the impact.

[Mr Tracy]

'Abuse of animals rife on farms across Europe, auditors warn'

Another report supporting what we already know

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/1...

[LDN]

FourWheelDrift said:

This is a little late in the debate. I’m not sure what you’ve read... but we’ve established that a multiple of plant, soya, etc crops are grown to feed livestock; than for human consumption.

Example: According to the USDA’s website; corn, barley, oats and sorghum are used as major feed, with corn accounting for more than 95% of total feed grain and production use. Soya is the best example because quite often, the debate against veganism and its correlation to a better environment is that “vegans eat soya, and those crops negatively affect the environment” but again, year on year, between 75% and 90% of soya is grown globally, is to feed livestock!

So the chap that wrote that, is either being deliberately disingenuous or knows less than he thinks he does.

[Kenny Powers]

Does anyone know of any good places to buy responsibly sourced, grass fed and/or organic meats in the Bedfordshire area? Farm shops or such like?

Sorry if this is a strange question in this discussion but it seems there are a few likeminded folk participating

[Oakey]

otolith said:

Assuming it would - how would the family who own the farmland make their living out of that?

I've mocked up what might be more likely to happen

[LDN]

Mr Tracy said:

'Abuse of animals rife on farms across Europe, auditors warn'

Another report supporting what we already know

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/1...

Makes for depressing reading but as you say... nothing we, at least, don’t already know.

“...the report by the European Court of Auditors (ECA) ... reveals economic interests often trump welfare rules.”

Of course they do. Because a sentient being is a commodity in the eyes of the animal agriculture industry.

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

Does anyone know of any good places to buy responsibly sourced, grass fed and/or organic meats in the Bedfordshire area? Farm shops or such like?

Sorry if this is a strange question in this discussion but it seems there are a few likeminded folk participating

Not a strange question at all; and I hope that someone can help you out.

[Rollin]

Digga said:

Cause and effect, on macro terms is simple; too many humans. That's the prime factor. All other 'solutions' merely skirt the issue.

People used to dismiss Malthusian theories, citing 'advances' in farming and industry. By now, those counter arguments ought to be well and truly dismissed.

Yup. Veganism doesn't do anything to fix the real problem. Unless of course they stop taking their animal derived B12 supplements.

[LDN]

Rollin said:

Digga said:

Cause and effect, on macro terms is simple; too many humans. That's the prime factor. All other 'solutions' merely skirt the issue.

People used to dismiss Malthusian theories, citing 'advances' in farming and industry. By now, those counter arguments ought to be well and truly dismissed.

Yup. Veganism doesn't do anything to fix the real problem. Unless of course they stop taking their animal derived B12 supplements.

Wrong.

I note that you skip all of the posts quoting actual data; EU studies and governmental figures... and stick to the low hanging fruit

[otolith]

Oakey said:

otolith said:

Assuming it would - how would the family who own the farmland make their living out of that?

I've mocked up what might be more likely to happen

Yep.

[LDN]

otolith said:

Oakey said:

otolith said:

Assuming it would - how would the family who own the farmland make their living out of that?

I've mocked up what might be more likely to happen

Yep.

They'd not necessarily be allowed to do that. It's an unknown and it would be different all over. I do know land owners that, if they could; would sell / lease land for results not to dissimilar to that picture; if they could. But they can't.

[Mr Tracy]

Can we do this?

'Protein Industries Supercluster'

''Protein Industries Supercluster will use plant genomics and novel processing technology to increase the value of key Canadian crops, such as canola, wheat and pulses that are coveted in high-growth foreign markets, such as China and India, as well as to satisfy growing markets in North America and Europe for plant-based meat alternatives and new food products. Building on Canada's worldwide reputation as a leader in agricultural production, this supercluster will make Canada a leading source for plant proteins and, ultimately, feed the world.''

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/093.nsf/eng/00012.ht...

[Davos123]

I mean they’re mostly just doing that to sell their crops to China, probably to feed to animals...

[Ruskie]

https://youtu.be/wgdUmsJcZkw

Land of hope and glory.

I just finished watching this. Harrowing, heartbreaking and horrendous. One of my biggest regrets in life is not being aware sooner and making the change.

[Kenny Powers]

I have found a farm shop not too far from me where all the animals are free to roam. Customers are invited to visit the farm for assurances of the living conditions. I haven’t visited them yet but will be doing so. As much as I understand people’s moral compass preventing them from eating meat, I’m not willing to remove myself from the natural food chain that shaped the planet’s biology for millions of years.

I also believe that vegetarian/vegan diets are nutritionally deficient, but I understand that not everyone will agree.

[Mr Tracy]

Fresh fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds, beans, plant-based milk ..... nutritionally deficient