Vegan extremists

[Mr Tracy]

Ruskie said:

https://youtu.be/wgdUmsJcZkw

Land of hope and glory.

I just finished watching this. Harrowing, heartbreaking and horrendous. One of my biggest regrets in life is not being aware sooner and making the change.

Indeed, people have this rosie image of cows and pigs running around fields, eating grass, braiding each others hair and happy volunteering to be 'humanely' slaughtered, knowing they lived full and happy lives

Edited by Mr Tracy on Thursday 22 November 07:29

[br d]

Ruskie said:

https://youtu.be/wgdUmsJcZkw

Land of hope and glory.

I just finished watching this. Harrowing, heartbreaking and horrendous. One of my biggest regrets in life is not being aware sooner and making the change.

Very strong stuff indeed.

Personally I feel it can do without the emotive music, show it cold and hard The footage itself is more than enough to make the point.

[Kenny Powers]

Mr Tracy said:

Indeed, people have this rosie image of cows and pigs running around fields, eating grass, braiding each others hair and happy volunteering to be 'humanely' slaughtered, knowing they lived full and happy lives

Edited by Mr Tracy on Thursday 22 November 07:29

Perhaps children, but realistically I don’t believe most adults have this image in their mind’s eye. I’m sure most are quietly aware of the reality but choose to ignore it because they like eating meat. Also the majority of people’s conscience only goes as far as the seams of their wallet - they won’t pay more for responsibly sourced organic grass finished meats from free roaming animals. It’s actually fairly difficult to find that produce. Regardless, I’m sure if probed, the majority would honestly admit that they just want cheap meat.

Most people are certainly not aware that these super-manufactured grain fed animals are full of growth hormones and antibiotics, and that as a result don’t taste that good and aren’t really even fit for human consumption, but that’s a different subject.

Edited by Kenny Powers on Thursday 22 November 08:45

[LDN]

Kenny Powers said:

I have found a farm shop not too far from me where all the animals are free to roam. Customers are invited to visit the farm for assurances of the living conditions. I haven’t visited them yet but will be doing so. As much as I understand people’s moral compass preventing them from eating meat, I’m not willing to remove myself from the natural food chain that shaped the planet’s biology for millions of years.

I also believe that vegetarian/vegan diets are nutritionally deficient, but I understand that not everyone will agree.

Good on you.

But as for ‘believing’ V diets to be nutritionally deficient. We’ve already established this is not true. And it’s a fact. So there’s not much to agree or disagree with on that front.

[LDN]

Ruskie said:

https://youtu.be/wgdUmsJcZkw

Land of hope and glory.

I just finished watching this. Harrowing, heartbreaking and horrendous. One of my biggest regrets in life is not being aware sooner and making the change.

Yes, it’s a good watch. At the end of the day, sentient beings are treated as commodities, and so, it’s never going to be pretty. The image of happy animals outside our window, in the field; is just a million miles away from the general rule.

[toppstuff]

LDN said:

Ruskie said:

https://youtu.be/wgdUmsJcZkw

Land of hope and glory.

I just finished watching this. Harrowing, heartbreaking and horrendous. One of my biggest regrets in life is not being aware sooner and making the change.

Yes, it’s a good watch. At the end of the day, sentient beings are treated as commodities, and so, it’s never going to be pretty. The image of happy animals outside our window, in the field; is just a million miles away from the general rule.

It’s not healthy to live in a state of cognitive dissonance. I can’t eat meat knowing what I know. And I can’t unknow it.

[Burwood]

toppstuff said:

LDN said:

Ruskie said:

https://youtu.be/wgdUmsJcZkw

Land of hope and glory.

I just finished watching this. Harrowing, heartbreaking and horrendous. One of my biggest regrets in life is not being aware sooner and making the change.

Yes, it’s a good watch. At the end of the day, sentient beings are treated as commodities, and so, it’s never going to be pretty. The image of happy animals outside our window, in the field; is just a million miles away from the general rule.

It’s not healthy to live in a state of cognitive dissonance. I can’t eat meat knowing what I know. And I can’t unknow it.

Very admirable of you indeed however this thread is about people who feel no one should eat meat and will break the law to impart their dogma.

My own thoughts are, people can do whatever they want, if it's legal. No issue with vegetarians etc. I find vegan a bit weird but willing to accept that may in part be ignorance or being wilfully obtuse. What I can't stand. Individuals (and i know several) who are fair weather vegetarians. Oh I don't eat meat but will eat chicken and fish and dairy. The number of pig headed arguments I've had with these morons who say 'but I am vegetarian' ' some vegetarians do eat fish you know' Well they aren't fking vegetarian then!

[Rollin]

Nanook said:

LDN said:

Kenny Powers said:

I have found a farm shop not too far from me where all the animals are free to roam. Customers are invited to visit the farm for assurances of the living conditions. I haven’t visited them yet but will be doing so. As much as I understand people’s moral compass preventing them from eating meat, I’m not willing to remove myself from the natural food chain that shaped the planet’s biology for millions of years.

I also believe that vegetarian/vegan diets are nutritionally deficient, but I understand that not everyone will agree.

Good on you.

But as for ‘believing’ V diets to be nutritionally deficient. We’ve already established this is not true. And it’s a fact. So there’s not much to agree or disagree with on that front.

I'm sure it's been done to death, but I've probably missed it. I've certainly seen it mentioned here, but where do Vegan people get their B12 from?

I was under the impression that it only occurs in animal products?

For some reason, he refuses to accept that B12 either needs to be taken as a supplement or eaten via food additives. If you don't do that, you're going to be nutritionally deficient. Even the vegan society says it's an issue.

[Kenny Powers]

LDN said:

Kenny Powers said:

I have found a farm shop not too far from me where all the animals are free to roam. Customers are invited to visit the farm for assurances of the living conditions. I haven’t visited them yet but will be doing so. As much as I understand people’s moral compass preventing them from eating meat, I’m not willing to remove myself from the natural food chain that shaped the planet’s biology for millions of years.

I also believe that vegetarian/vegan diets are nutritionally deficient, but I understand that not everyone will agree.

Good on you.

But as for ‘believing’ V diets to be nutritionally deficient. We’ve already established this is not true. And it’s a fact. So there’s not much to agree or disagree with on that front.

“We” didn’t establish anything. You’re welcome to your views, which by the way are not facts, but I don’t have to agree with them. I believe there are certain deficiencies with vegan diets, and nature would probably agree considering we are biologically adapted to eat what it puts in front of us, meat included.

Anyone is free to disagree, but I don’t want to get into a twenty page debate as to why I hold this view

[LDN]

Burwood said:

toppstuff said:

LDN said:

Ruskie said:

https://youtu.be/wgdUmsJcZkw

Land of hope and glory.

I just finished watching this. Harrowing, heartbreaking and horrendous. One of my biggest regrets in life is not being aware sooner and making the change.

Yes, it’s a good watch. At the end of the day, sentient beings are treated as commodities, and so, it’s never going to be pretty. The image of happy animals outside our window, in the field; is just a million miles away from the general rule.

It’s not healthy to live in a state of cognitive dissonance. I can’t eat meat knowing what I know. And I can’t unknow it.

Very admirable of you indeed however this thread is about people who feel no one should eat meat and will break the law to impart their dogma.

My own thoughts are, people can do whatever they want, if it's legal. No issue with vegetarians etc. I find vegan a bit weird but willing to accept that may in part be ignorance or being wilfully obtuse. What I can't stand. Individuals (and i know several) who are fair weather vegetarians. Oh I don't eat meat but will eat chicken and fish and dairy. The number of pig headed arguments I've had with these morons who say 'but I am vegetarian' ' some vegetarians do eat fish you know' Well they aren't fking vegetarian then!

Agree with most of that. As well, a vegetarian that eats fish isn’t a vegetarian; you’re right. They are called pescatarians.

[anonymous-user]

Nanook said:

LDN said:

Kenny Powers said:

I have found a farm shop not too far from me where all the animals are free to roam. Customers are invited to visit the farm for assurances of the living conditions. I haven’t visited them yet but will be doing so. As much as I understand people’s moral compass preventing them from eating meat, I’m not willing to remove myself from the natural food chain that shaped the planet’s biology for millions of years.

I also believe that vegetarian/vegan diets are nutritionally deficient, but I understand that not everyone will agree.

Good on you.

But as for ‘believing’ V diets to be nutritionally deficient. We’ve already established this is not true. And it’s a fact. So there’s not much to agree or disagree with on that front.

I'm sure it's been done to death, but I've probably missed it. I've certainly seen it mentioned here, but where do Vegan people get their B12 from?

I was under the impression that it only occurs in animal products?

I think they are mainly seen as "nutritionally deficient" because most people don't know the first fking thing about food, and therefore just switching to veganism means there could be trouble. If you just cut out meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc overnight, and don't replace them with anything, then you're going to run into trouble. This is also why it is advised not to raise children as vegans because whilst you can, it is very difficult to ensure that they are getting the right balance of all the nutrition they need in order to avoid stuff like iron deficiencies, or muscle growth issues.

Every single vegan I know has a history of eating disorders or has always had a difficult relationship with their food. This seems to be not just anecdotal but is backed up by numerous research papers and medical institutes. A switch to veganism or vegetarianism should be seen as a warning sign for parents when a child asks to do it because despite what every vegan will tell you, it is still a restricted diet.

Also we need to remember that despite its huge growth, veganism is still a minority sport. It is still extremely hard to adopt (as above) if you have a family, or still want to be invited to people's houses without making a fuss about them cooking something special for you.

Vegan vitamin B12 comes from stuff like nutritional yeast fortified with bacterial cultures.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 22 November 10:58

[otolith]

Burwood said:

What I can't stand. Individuals (and i know several) who are fair weather vegetarians. Oh I don't eat meat but will eat chicken and fish and dairy. The number of pig headed arguments I've had with these morons who say 'but I am vegetarian' ' some vegetarians do eat fish you know' Well they aren't fking vegetarian then!

Just a matter of labels, though, isn't it? People exclude certain animal products from their diets for all sorts of reasons. If people are just concerned about the health risks of red meat, there's no reason for them to avoid fish. If they're concerned about farming practices or sustainability they might just be very picky about which animal foods they eat and how they are produced. If they are concerned about eating sentient beings, they might be willing to eat some animals - I don't believe a bivalve mollusc or a jellyfish is any more sentient than a carrot.

It's probably easier for them in a lot of situations just to say "I'm vegetarian" than to give a list of what they will eat and why.

[Ruskie]

Nanook said:

LDN said:

Kenny Powers said:

I have found a farm shop not too far from me where all the animals are free to roam. Customers are invited to visit the farm for assurances of the living conditions. I haven’t visited them yet but will be doing so. As much as I understand people’s moral compass preventing them from eating meat, I’m not willing to remove myself from the natural food chain that shaped the planet’s biology for millions of years.

I also believe that vegetarian/vegan diets are nutritionally deficient, but I understand that not everyone will agree.

Good on you.

But as for ‘believing’ V diets to be nutritionally deficient. We’ve already established this is not true. And it’s a fact. So there’s not much to agree or disagree with on that front.

I'm sure it's been done to death, but I've probably missed it. I've certainly seen it mentioned here, but where do Vegan people get their B12 from?

I was under the impression that it only occurs in animal products?

You can get B12 from fortified cereals not just animal products.

[LDN]

Regarding B12. We already went into some detail about fortified foods; soya, cereal, etc. We then expanded upon this and said that, if fortification or supplements are unnatural then that same assertion can be made for the cocktail of drugs, supplements and anti-biotics that go into animal feed / animals... I even quoted figures, detailing the drugs and ‘stuff’ that goes into animals that are farmed for human consumption. What part of that is natural? None of it, I would suggest. So one cannot have it both ways. Numerous sources, including our own NHS state that a planned vegan diet provides everything needed. And when it comes to eating meat, their healthy living directive suggests cutting out meat, as much as 89%. Forgetting the morality of it; learned thinking does sway toward cutting down on meat drastically, in any case.

[anonymous-user]

Nanook said:

Ruskie said:

You can get B12 from fortified cereals not just animal products.

When you say fortified though, doesn't that mean that the vitamin is added to the cereal?

It does but normally it comes from a bacteria.

[anonymous-user]

Nanook said:

bulldong said:

It does but normally it comes from a bacteria.

Oh ok. Vegan bacteria.

Just for the record, I am not vegan and never will be, so I am not trying to start a fight here about what is and isn't vegan and whether I think it is good or not.

I think the key distinction is that a bacteria doesn't have a nervous system and is therefore OK to eat.

[Rollin]

LDN said:

Regarding B12. We already went into some detail about fortified foods; soya, cereal, etc. We then expanded upon this and said that, if fortification or supplements are unnatural then that same assertion can be made for the cocktail of drugs, supplements and anti-biotics that go into animal feed / animals... I even quoted figures, detailing the drugs and ‘stuff’ that goes into animals that are farmed for human consumption. What part of that is natural? None of it, I would suggest. So one cannot have it both ways. Numerous sources, including our own NHS state that a planned vegan diet provides everything needed. And when it comes to eating meat, their healthy living directive suggests cutting out meat, as much as 89%. Forgetting the morality of it; learned thinking does sway toward cutting down on meat drastically, in any case.

Healthy vegan diet needs fortified food or supplements.

Healthy non vegan diet doesn't.

NHS says it.
Vegan society says it.

[Kenny Powers]

Rollin said:

Healthy vegan diet needs fortified food or supplements.

Healthy non vegan diet doesn't.

NHS says it.
Vegan society says it.

There’s also the subject of bioavailability. I was under the impression that many of the essential micronutrients are only available to the body when supplied by animal fats and proteins? Some sources, particularly supplemental, are largely ineffective?

That’s a question not an assertion. I know that Zoë Harcombe has discussed this a lot, but I can’t recall specifics.

[LDN]

Rollin said:

LDN said:

Regarding B12. We already went into some detail about fortified foods; soya, cereal, etc. We then expanded upon this and said that, if fortification or supplements are unnatural then that same assertion can be made for the cocktail of drugs, supplements and anti-biotics that go into animal feed / animals... I even quoted figures, detailing the drugs and ‘stuff’ that goes into animals that are farmed for human consumption. What part of that is natural? None of it, I would suggest. So one cannot have it both ways. Numerous sources, including our own NHS state that a planned vegan diet provides everything needed. And when it comes to eating meat, their healthy living directive suggests cutting out meat, as much as 89%. Forgetting the morality of it; learned thinking does sway toward cutting down on meat drastically, in any case.

Healthy vegan diet needs fortified food or supplements.

Healthy non vegan diet doesn't.

NHS says it.
Vegan society says it.

But the point I’m making is... B12 from fortified sources is bad, why?

Especially when, livestock in animal agriculture is fortified & drugged ten times over. So your food is also fortified / affected.

So again, why is it bad in one instance but not bad in another? Interested to hear your take on it.

[otolith]

I suppose the difference, not that it really matters, is that if you wanted to live a life without consuming supplements either directly or via feeding, you would have to eat (unsupplemented) meat.