Yellow vests - fuel protest day of action in France

Yellow vests - fuel protest day of action in France

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bitchstewie

50,782 posts

209 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
France is today, in many ways, a country under paramilitary control, much as it was in 1940
Come again? confused

I'm not terribly well up on my French history so you might need to explain that particular comparison for me.

bloomen

6,854 posts

158 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
That's exactly how I feel the pictures portrayed, when you have the police fighting the populace, striking images of them fighting firemen is not a good look for a democracy.
A relative lives in France and he made a point that rang true to me.

For all their faults the British police feel like they're ultimately there to protect you. In France and many other European countries the police feel like they're there to ultimately protect the state.

citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
bloomen said:
A relative lives in France and he made a point that rang true to me.

For all their faults the British police feel like they're ultimately there to protect you. In France and many other European countries the police feel like they're there to ultimately protect the state.
I think that we are one of the few states that claims to police by consent, its not really true though as if it came to it the state will always use the levers of power to control its subjects

southendpier

5,254 posts

228 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
bloomen said:
A relative lives in France and he made a point that rang true to me.

For all their faults the British police feel like they're ultimately there to protect you. In France and many other European countries the police feel like they're there to ultimately protect the state.
I think that we are one of the few states that claims to police by consent, its not really true though as if it came to it the state will always use the levers of power to control its subjects
Possibly, but do you think 'The State' (being the government) is only there through the consent of its subjects? If (enough) of the subjects wanted they could overthrow the state. The State would need to enforce full paramilitary control to oppose this. Citizensm1th. "power to the people" hehe

citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
southendpier said:
Possibly, but do you think 'The State' (being the government) is only there through the consent of its subjects? If (enough) of the subjects wanted they could overthrow the state. The State would need to enforce full paramilitary control to oppose this. Citizensm1th. "power to the people" hehe
I would point you to the plans put in place during the 80,s that in the event of a nuclear strike on the UK the police were planned to to be armed and anyone not conforming to the wishes of the regional controller was to be shot. Granted this was a plan for extreme times but as I stated when push really comes to shove the state will always try to ensure its own survival over that of its subjects

bloomen

6,854 posts

158 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
I think that we are one of the few states that claims to police by consent, its not really true though as if it came to it the state will always use the levers of power to control its subjects
No doubt, but that initial attitude colours everything in day to day life.

I've seen CRS officers hanging about in various places in France. They act like they've been placed in enemy territory, forming rings around their vehicles and staring out anyone who strolls past on a quiet Sunday afternoon. The very existence of a dedicated arm to be wound up and thrown at the populace wouldn't go down too well in the UK.

In the countryside the gendarmes live in barracks behind high walls. The locals where I hang out act like they're aloof occupiers best avoided rather than someone supposed to be faintly on your side.


citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
bloomen said:
No doubt, but that initial attitude colours everything in day to day life.

I've seen CRS officers hanging about in various places in France. They act like they've been placed in enemy territory, forming rings around their vehicles and staring out anyone who strolls past on a quiet Sunday afternoon. The very existence of a dedicated arm to be wound up and thrown at the populace wouldn't go down too well in the UK.

In the countryside the gendarmes live in barracks behind high walls. The locals where I hang out act like they're aloof occupiers best avoided rather than someone supposed to be faintly on your side.
We have no equivalent of the gendarmerie thankfully we don't tend to deploy the military these days as it never ends well when you deploy those types of forces

bloomen

6,854 posts

158 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
We have no equivalent of the gendarmerie thankfully we don't tend to deploy the military these days as it never ends well when you deploy those types of forces
That's another thing I don't get about European policing and never will. Gendarmes and Carabinieri are in no way equivalent to deploying Paras on the streets but it still makes little sense to me.

I used to live in Italy and the Carabinieri would set up a machine gun nest to conduct wee document checks for passing cars. A couple of them with submachine guns very prominently on their chest would pass the time of day while the one in the nest would vaguely wiggle his GPMG and this was in rural Emilia Romagna.

The greatest threat to them would've been grannies losing control of their clutch.

Edited by bloomen on Tuesday 31st December 12:25

amgmcqueen

3,343 posts

149 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
smn159 said:
amgmcqueen said:
smn159 said:
Vanden Saab said:
Yeah, those two pictures are exactly equivalent rolleyes
The bottom picture should have the EU flag not the French.
Only if you're a complete idiot with no grasp of history
Both want the same thing......a German controlled European empire.

smn159

12,448 posts

216 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
amgmcqueen said:
smn159 said:
amgmcqueen said:
smn159 said:
Vanden Saab said:
Yeah, those two pictures are exactly equivalent rolleyes
The bottom picture should have the EU flag not the French.
Only if you're a complete idiot with no grasp of history
Both want the same thing......a German controlled European empire.
First impression confirmed - thanks

Earthdweller

Original Poster:

13,432 posts

125 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
I would point you to the plans put in place during the 80,s that in the event of a nuclear strike on the UK the police were planned to to be armed and anyone not conforming to the wishes of the regional controller was to be shot. Granted this was a plan for extreme times but as I stated when push really comes to shove the state will always try to ensure its own survival over that of its subjects
That’s a new one on me and I was in the Police in the 80’s!

Every six months we had to go to a day of mandatory “civil defence” training which pretty much comprised watching presentations about how lucky we would be if we were vapourised in the first strike smile

We didn’t have guns, the only armed patrols were the DPG Ranger units in central London.

Granted each main station had a safe with about a dozen ancient handguns in it and each station had a couple of “authorised shots”

Certainly none of the training I ever got alluded to us all being given guns and being ordered to randomly shoot people

They did have a thing called the “mobile column” where city cops would be sent to a remote army camp to be available to be sent back into the wasteland if Armageddon struck, but that had been abandoned by the 80’s

I do however recall being told during the 90’s that they did have enough handguns to issue one to every operational cop. But what you’d do with a WW2 revolver and no training I’m not so sure

I think most cops would just be as fried as everyone else mind

smile

GoodCompany

306 posts

62 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
amgmcqueen said:
Both want the same thing......a German controlled European empire.
rofl Love these parody accounts, bit obvious though.

bloomen

6,854 posts

158 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
That’s a new one on me and I was in the Police in the 80’s!
I've watched Threads.

It's the traffic wardens who would've gotten the shooters.

GoodCompany

306 posts

62 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
bloomen said:
I've watched Threads.

It's the traffic wardens who would've gotten the shooters.
Don't forget the underpants over the face too. laugh Great film though,

Earthdweller

Original Poster:

13,432 posts

125 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
bloomen said:
A relative lives in France and he made a point that rang true to me.

For all their faults the British police feel like they're ultimately there to protect you. In France and many other European countries the police feel like they're there to ultimately protect the state.
I think that we are one of the few states that claims to police by consent, its not really true though as if it came to it the state will always use the levers of power to control its subjects
The British Police do not have the capacity nor numbers to Police any way other than by consent

Less than 10k public order trained officers and around 4K armed officers

Compared to France over 300k armed and public order trained Police/Gendarmes

The situation is similar across most of Europe

citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
amgmcqueen said:
Both want the same thing......a German controlled European empire.
I find it very sad that someone exists with such a bitter view of others, such a waste of a life

Earthdweller

Original Poster:

13,432 posts

125 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
markjmd said:
Earthdweller said:
bhstewie said:
B'stard Child said:
His sense of humor has long since been bypassed biggrin
We're really comparing Nazi's marching up the Champs-Élysées to the French Police? confused

My sense of humour is fine but if there's something funny there and I'm missing a "funny joke" it must be a very subtle one.
I don’t find it funny at all.

It’s a very striking pair of images and a rather really sad

In 1940 the French people were under the control of an occupying Army, supported by the French Government of the day

The pictures allude to the French people being under the control of a paramilitary force today in 2019, the difference being they are directed by the French Government

Whilst I’m in no way comparing the Nazi’s to the CRS or Gendarmes

France is today, in many ways, a country under paramilitary control, much as it was in 1940

A divided country with a deeply unpopular Govt trying to enforce its rule on a populace that is resisting

France is without doubt a country in crisis with deep political, social and economic problems and the Govt has taken to the jackboot to control it

The pictures are sobering stark and thought provoking

They are not good images


smile
You do realize that by making the kind of absurd equivalence that you are here, you're effectively trivializing the sufferring of all European populations who endured Nazi occupation in WWII, not only that of France, and making a mockery of those who genuinely risked their lives (and in many cases gave them up) resisting it into the bargain, right? Or was the nonsense you just spouted merely intended as a jolly good wheeze?
Absolutely not. I specifically said I’m not comparing modern day France with the Nazi’s

The images portray jackboots on the Champs-Elysee 80 years apart

Do you not find it sad that in 2019 Paramilitary soldiers are routinely deployed on the streets of a major European country to maintain order and control ?

citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
Absolutely not. I specifically said I’m not comparing modern day France with the Nazi’s

The images portray jackboots on the Champs-Elysee 80 years apart

Do you not find it sad that in 2019 Paramilitary soldiers are routinely deployed on the streets of a major European country to maintain order and control ?
Routinely deployed in more than one country in Europe on a daily basis, as they have been for decades.


Earthdweller

Original Poster:

13,432 posts

125 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
Earthdweller said:
Absolutely not. I specifically said I’m not comparing modern day France with the Nazi’s

The images portray jackboots on the Champs-Elysee 80 years apart

Do you not find it sad that in 2019 Paramilitary soldiers are routinely deployed on the streets of a major European country to maintain order and control ?
Routinely deployed in more than one country in Europe on a daily basis, as they have been for decades.
You are of course correct, I apologise but it has just become so routine to me when I visit any European City, to be met with water cannons and paramilitary soldiers by the thousand, dressed as robocops forming barriers to allow people to congregate in and cross the streets unimpeded by vehicles

It’s just the norm in the E.U. in 2019!

smile

citizensm1th

8,371 posts

136 months

Tuesday 31st December 2019
quotequote all
Shock horror there are parts of the world that have different systems and values to the UK.

It is like those idiots who go on holiday and act as if the are in their local town and wonder why Mr foreign plod takes a far more robust view to their behaviour than pc plod in Nantwich.

I would have thought the ph massive would enjoy le flicks robust answers to protesters as they are always calling for that type of response when there are protests in this country