Theresa May (Vol.2)

[edh]

El stovey said:

What’s the point in her giving up? Her deal (the eu’s deal) is the only one the EU will accept.

It’s that or nothing.

Nothing is either no deal (which most MPs are against) or cancelling the whole thing which also seems to not be on the table.

Barnier set out in a one page diagram all of the different options for a future relationship that they might agree to, and which ones May's red lines ruled out. Change the red lines (FOM, Cu etc..) and we have many options available to us that the EU will accept

I agree that all of these would sit alongside the WA, but some changes to the PD would offset the failings in the WA

[Hereward]

Piha said:

biggbn said:

I laugh when I see the apoplectic bile posted in the corbyn thread begging people to wake up, see him and his rabble for what they are, the biggest existential threat to the moral fibre of UK.Inc etc...etc...

If you guys wanna see an existential threat look no further than the current incumbent of no10, someone who actually HAS power, someone who is actually a genuine LIVE threat. Wake up guys, wake up. The grand old party is tearing itself apart, we have neither a credible leadership nor a credible opposition, we are practicing nihilistic politics and racing each other to the bottom of a moral morass that apparently has no bottom...

Good post and I fully agree.

Disagree. Any sane person will agree that capitalism is better for this nation than communism/marxism. That is the crux of the "apoplectic bile" on the Corbyn thread.

[Burwood]

Piha said:

Burwood said:

Hey Piha, my news feed just popped up. Looks like we are heading for the exit under the Sail of Mays deal. I'm not happy about that but i suppose it's Leaves fault. They are to blame, right

When you drag yourself off the floor and cleaned up the froth, read what I said 'i'm not happy about it'. You're far too easy to wind up, Captain

[Burwood]

your username isn't the West Auckland beach by chance? If so are you a Kiwi

[9xxNick]

Hereward said:

Piha said:

biggbn said:

I laugh when I see the apoplectic bile posted in the corbyn thread begging people to wake up, see him and his rabble for what they are, the biggest existential threat to the moral fibre of UK.Inc etc...etc...

If you guys wanna see an existential threat look no further than the current incumbent of no10, someone who actually HAS power, someone who is actually a genuine LIVE threat. Wake up guys, wake up. The grand old party is tearing itself apart, we have neither a credible leadership nor a credible opposition, we are practicing nihilistic politics and racing each other to the bottom of a moral morass that apparently has no bottom...

Good post and I fully agree.

Disagree. Any sane person will agree that capitalism is better for this nation than communism/marxism. That is the crux of the "apoplectic bile" on the Corbyn thread.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that there are a great many people who cannot imagine really seismic changes in a country's situation (economic and social) and consequently believe that a different government can only bring about a few, relatively trivial changes which they may like or dislike. Or maybe they believe that major change for the worse wouldn't be possible in the UK, as if we're a special case. While sincererly hoping it won't happen, I don't see any fundamental reason why the UK should be institutionally immune to the fates that have come to some other countries.

[Piha]

Burwood said:

your username isn't the West Auckland beach by chance? If so are you a Kiwi

And a lovely beach it is too. Have you been recently?

[biggbn]

Hereward said:

Disagree. Any sane person will agree that capitalism is better for this nation than communism/marxism. That is the crux of the "apoplectic bile" on the Corbyn thread.

Why must it be extremes? I would argue that we live in a wonderful country with many socialist principles, health, education etc, but it could be better. My argument, if we are going to go to polar opposites, is surely any sane person must see that capitalism needs a watchful firm hand and it must be pointed in the right direction lest we end up with unfettered consumerism and a society where only those with money and power receive healthcare etc.. Now that would be ridiculous and doesn't happen in any civilised western economy...does it?

[768]

biggbn said:

Hereward said:

Disagree. Any sane person will agree that capitalism is better for this nation than communism/marxism. That is the crux of the "apoplectic bile" on the Corbyn thread.

Why must it be extremes?

Ask Corbyn and McDonnell.

[biggbn]

768 said:

Ask Corbyn and McDonnell.

I will respectfully back away. Taking public services back into public ownership IF THEY ARE RUN WELL is hardly Stalin's Russia. Everyone harks back to the seventies whilst casually ignoring the complete bks the private sector have made off transport, infrastructure maintenance etc.. Now, you don't really need a long memory for that do you. I would just like a more tactile capitalism, an efficient public sector not the monolithic nightmare of previous incumbents, which ironically, and to come full circle, is where many multinationals now are, a gilliamesque nightmare of nepotism and bureaucracy

[RichB]

biggbn said:

768 said:

Ask Corbyn and McDonnell.

I will respectfully back away.

But you haven't have you, because that's quite a provocative statement.

biggbn said:

Taking public services back into public ownership IF THEY ARE RUN WELL is hardly Stalin's Russia. Everyone harks back to the seventies whilst casually ignoring the complete bks the private sector have made off transport, infrastructure maintenance etc.. Now, you don't really need a long memory for that do you. <clip>

Your memory is obviously too short to remember the awful mess British Railways was under public ownership, filthy carriages and stations, trains late, food was laughable. While it is currently fashionable to knock the railways, they are significantly better than they were in the '60s & '70s.

[wst]

biggbn said:

768 said:

Ask Corbyn and McDonnell.

I will respectfully back away. Taking public services back into public ownership IF THEY ARE RUN WELL is hardly Stalin's Russia.

Let's also just take a moment to remember how many companies are being propped up by the use of Working Tax Credits to allow the companies to pay lower wages, before we dogpile you for being Chairman Mao

RichB said:

Your memory is obviously too short to remember the awful mess British Railways was under public ownership, filthy carriages and stations, trains late, food was laughable. While it is currently fashionable to knock the railways, they are significantly better than they were in the '60s & '70s.

That doesn't mean that state owned businesses are inherently badly run.

[Einion Yrth]

wst said:

That doesn't mean that state owned businesses are inherently badly run.

Personal experience tells me that they always have been, why should that change?

[RichB]

wst said:

biggbn said:

768 said:

Ask Corbyn and McDonnell.

I will respectfully back away. Taking public services back into public ownership IF THEY ARE RUN WELL is hardly Stalin's Russia.

Let's also just take a moment to remember how many companies are being propped up by the use of Working Tax Credits to allow the companies to pay lower wages, before we dogpile you for being Chairman Mao

RichB said:

Your memory is obviously too short to remember the awful mess British Railways was under public ownership, filthy carriages and stations, trains late, food was laughable. While it is currently fashionable to knock the railways, they are significantly better than they were in the '60s & '70s.

That doesn't mean that state owned businesses are inherently badly run.

No it doesn't but being old enough to remember that period very well I remember the ineptitude that was BR, I also the disaster that was British Leyland. I would agree that the essential services; water, energy and health should be state owned but I have no faith in the current crop of ministers to run any of those organisations. I would renationalise them and put business people in to run them. I would also take education out of government control to avoid the missive left right swings in policy. However, having read about McDonnell and having watched Corby for 40 years I know their ambition is a communist republic state.

[edh]

RichB said:

Your memory is obviously too short to remember the awful mess British Railways was under public ownership, filthy carriages and stations, trains late, food was laughable. While it is currently fashionable to knock the railways, they are significantly better than they were in the '60s & '70s.

Cars are objectively better and safer now than in the 60's and 70's, Healthcare outcomes are better these days. No public / private correlation. 50 years of technological progress though...

Many UK rail operators are wholly or partially state owned - just not UK state owned.

No reason why UK state owned railways wouldn't work

[Vaud]

RichB said:

No it doesn't but being old enough to remember that period very well I remember the ineptitude that was BR, I also the disaster that was British Leyland. I would agree that the essential services; water, energy and health should be state owned but I have no faith in the current crop of ministers to run any of those organisations. I would renationalise them and put business people in to run them. I would also take education out of government control to avoid the missive left right swings in policy. However, having read about McDonnell and having watched Corby for 40 years I know their ambition is a communist republic state.

I'm partly inclined to agree. Where you can have some competition (power) then leave some of it to the market. Water makes no sense to be private as you can't move it around the country. Health should be majority in govt hands but some services make sense to be private (to manage peak demands, plus some cleaning, physio, etc )

[biggbn]

You are all speaking my language. For a state owned service to be tenable it must be able to compete on a level playing field as if it was a private company, it's just the profits can be reinvested into the country. At the moment we have badly run private companies and state sponsored bail out, worst of both worlds

[biggbn]

RichB said:

biggbn said:

768 said:

Ask Corbyn and McDonnell.

I will respectfully back away.

But you haven't have you, because that's quite a provocative statement.

biggbn said:

Taking public services back into public ownership IF THEY ARE RUN WELL is hardly Stalin's Russia. Everyone harks back to the seventies whilst casually ignoring the complete bks the private sector have made off transport, infrastructure maintenance etc.. Now, you don't really need a long memory for that do you. <clip>

Your memory is obviously too short to remember the awful mess British Railways was under public ownership, filthy carriages and stations, trains late, food was laughable. While it is currently fashionable to knock the railways, they are significantly better than they were in the '60s & '70s.

When I said I would respectfully back away i meant from the name calling and citing, am happy to discuss ideologies and philosophies

[RichB]

edh said:

RichB said:

Your memory is obviously too short to remember the awful mess British Railways was under public ownership, filthy carriages and stations, trains late, food was laughable. While it is currently fashionable to knock the railways, they are significantly better than they were in the '60s & '70s.

Cars are objectively better and safer now than in the 60's and 70's, Healthcare outcomes are better these days. No public / private correlation. 50 years of technological progress though...

Many UK rail operators are wholly or partially state owned - just not UK state owned. No reason why UK state owned railways wouldn't work

With regard to BL the mess certainly due to politics. I would agree that railways can be state owned and good, the German, Dutch and Swiss railways spring to mind. I would not be averse to adding railways to my list of essential services. However I would hate to see a minister of transport running it.

Sadly, the sceptic in me just knows that McDonnell's/Momentum's version of socialism would be to nationalise everything and establish their cronies in the top jobs with huge offices, in massive government owned buildings, maintained at huge public expense because that's what communists always do. Everyone is equal but there are always big pigs and little pigs.

[RichB]

biggbn said:

When I said I would respectfully back away i meant from the name calling and citing, am happy to discuss ideologies and philosophies

ok

[djohnson]

9xxNick said:

Hereward said:

Piha said:

biggbn said:

I laugh when I see the apoplectic bile posted in the corbyn thread begging people to wake up, see him and his rabble for what they are, the biggest existential threat to the moral fibre of UK.Inc etc...etc...

If you guys wanna see an existential threat look no further than the current incumbent of no10, someone who actually HAS power, someone who is actually a genuine LIVE threat. Wake up guys, wake up. The grand old party is tearing itself apart, we have neither a credible leadership nor a credible opposition, we are practicing nihilistic politics and racing each other to the bottom of a moral morass that apparently has no bottom...

Good post and I fully agree.

Disagree. Any sane person will agree that capitalism is better for this nation than communism/marxism. That is the crux of the "apoplectic bile" on the Corbyn thread.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that there are a great many people who cannot imagine really seismic changes in a country's situation (economic and social) and consequently believe that a different government can only bring about a few, relatively trivial changes which they may like or dislike. Or maybe they believe that major change for the worse wouldn't be possible in the UK, as if we're a special case. While sincererly hoping it won't happen, I don't see any fundamental reason why the UK should be institutionally immune to the fates that have come to some other countries.

I completely agree. Many of his supporters believe that with Corbyn in power we’d have fundamentally the same economy with much more public spending, the rich slightly less well off and the poor much better off. This is naive. If Tony Blair we’re still the Labour leader then the changes wouldn’t be vast. Corbyn and his front bench are pretending to be way more moderate than they truly are. Simply look at what they’ve said and done over their careers and the people they have surrounded themselves with now. They’re avowed Marxists with an intent implement Marxism in the UK if they get into power. This has been their life’s ambition, they haven’t changed now and they won’t go soft on this if we are daft enough to give them a chance. We’d suffer the same fate as every instance of such a government ever, they preach parity of opportunity but would deliver equality of poverty. The evidence of their true beliefs is overwhelming. The evidence as to the deverstation that implementing these beliefs would bring to the UK is equally overwhelming. That they control the opposition party is a freak occurance. That the current political turmoil might just give them a doorway to power is an equally unusual set of circumstances. The stars will never align like this again for the hard left. We should all be focussed on ensuring that they don’t manage to make good on this one off opportunity. History tells us the hard left’s real view on democracy, they only need to win one election anything after that is a foregone conclusion. No Marxist government has ever been removed from power democratically. They represent a massive threat to the UK our economic prosperity and lifestyle. I’d take a no deal Bexit over a Corbyn government without hesitation. Every politician should be focussed on ensuring that they don’t get into power, if this means sacrificing views on the EU then that’s a price worth paying. As I read the situation at the moment, I think it’s less than probable but Corbyn still might get the keys to Downing Street. I know I’m right in what I say, I pray to god it’ll never be proven that I am.