Brexit Referendum - top two choices

[Mario149]

NoNeed said:

It's a remain parliament, no deal will do it wants to remain and has no intention of allowing the government to implement the vote result

Parliamentary sovereignty FTW. Who knew we had it already?!

Basically, if we've learnt anything since 2016, it's that you can either have parliamentary sovereignty, or binding referenda, but not both. And pretending otherwise has got us into an awful pickle

Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 15th December 07:30

[Helicopter123]

wst said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Because many people understand that a statement from our government that:


Note: Government, not Party promise.

The Government can promise what it likes, it's not supreme. It's efforts have been found wanting, it's turned out a deal which literally no-one likes.

No government can bind a future government.

In that sense, the referendum was really pretty meaningless, in a legal sense.

[The Dangerous Elk]

And the damage that will do if they do not carry it out ?

MP's will decide to, if they follow this path, to damage the UK's system deeper than any Left or Right wing "Activist" could ever do.

[don'tbesilly]

Helicopter123 said:

wst said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Because many people understand that a statement from our government that:


Note: Government, not Party promise.

The Government can promise what it likes, it's not supreme. It's efforts have been found wanting, it's turned out a deal which literally no-one likes.

No government can bind a future government.

In that sense, the referendum was really pretty meaningless, in a legal sense.

Cameron (Tory) was responsible for the leaflet & Resigned

May (Tory) took up the vacant seat and reinforced the message and legacy of Cameron.

May (Tory) reinforced the original message of 2016 in the 2017 GE with their manifesto, as did Labour, May & the Tories went onto win the GE.

May (Tory) is still the Prime Minister, and still promoting the message that the result of the 2016 referendum will be enacted.

So no change from 23rd June 2016.

[The Dangerous Elk]

don'tbesilly said:

Cameron (Tory) was responsible for the leaflet & Resigned

May (Tory) took up the vacant seat and reinforced the message and legacy of Cameron whilst plotting with Oilly to in fact keep the UK inside the arms of the Eu at all costs.

May (Tory) PM & MP's pay lip service tothe original message of 2016 in the 2017 GE with their manifesto, as did Labour, May & the Tories went onto win the GE.

May (Tory) is still the Prime Minister, but really is only PRETENDING that the result of the 2016 referendum will be enacted.

So no change from 23rd June 2016.

[Mario149]

don'tbesilly said:

Helicopter123 said:

wst said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Because many people understand that a statement from our government that:


Note: Government, not Party promise.

The Government can promise what it likes, it's not supreme. It's efforts have been found wanting, it's turned out a deal which literally no-one likes.

No government can bind a future government.

In that sense, the referendum was really pretty meaningless, in a legal sense.

Cameron (Tory) was responsible for the leaflet & Resigned

May (Tory) took up the vacant seat and reinforced the message and legacy of Cameron.

May (Tory) reinforced the original message of 2016 in the 2017 GE with their manifesto, as did Labour, May & the Tories went onto win the GE.

May (Tory) is still the Prime Minister, and still promoting the message that the result of the 2016 referendum will be enacted.

So no change from 23rd June 2016.

All true, but still meaningless in a legal sense.

From a non-legal PoV, I find it interesting that the worry if we end up Remaining after say another vote is that it will be a massive betrayal of all the people who still want to leave and they'll be up in arms, never vote again etc etc. Not sure it's any different for those who want to Remain if we end up leaving with this crap deal or no deal because we aren't given a final say to make sure the country is still certain of its course. Indeed the resentment from Remainers will last a lot longer just due to demographics.

Interesting times to say the least.

[don'tbesilly]

Mario149 said:

don'tbesilly said:

Helicopter123 said:

wst said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Because many people understand that a statement from our government that:


Note: Government, not Party promise.

The Government can promise what it likes, it's not supreme. It's efforts have been found wanting, it's turned out a deal which literally no-one likes.

No government can bind a future government.

In that sense, the referendum was really pretty meaningless, in a legal sense.

Cameron (Tory) was responsible for the leaflet & Resigned

May (Tory) took up the vacant seat and reinforced the message and legacy of Cameron.

May (Tory) reinforced the original message of 2016 in the 2017 GE with their manifesto, as did Labour, May & the Tories went onto win the GE.

May (Tory) is still the Prime Minister, and still promoting the message that the result of the 2016 referendum will be enacted.

So no change from 23rd June 2016.

All true, but still meaningless in a legal sense.

From a non-legal PoV, I find it interesting that the worry if we end up Remaining after say another vote is that it will be a massive betrayal of all the people who still want to leave and they'll be up in arms, never vote again etc etc. Not sure it's any different for those who want to Remain if we end up leaving with this crap deal or no deal because we aren't given a final say to make sure the country is still certain of its course. Indeed the resentment from Remainers will last a lot longer just due to demographics.

Interesting times to say the least.

It is very legal, it's a bill passed in parliament

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europ...

[Helicopter123]

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

don'tbesilly said:

Helicopter123 said:

wst said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Because many people understand that a statement from our government that:


Note: Government, not Party promise.

The Government can promise what it likes, it's not supreme. It's efforts have been found wanting, it's turned out a deal which literally no-one likes.

No government can bind a future government.

In that sense, the referendum was really pretty meaningless, in a legal sense.

Cameron (Tory) was responsible for the leaflet & Resigned

May (Tory) took up the vacant seat and reinforced the message and legacy of Cameron.

May (Tory) reinforced the original message of 2016 in the 2017 GE with their manifesto, as did Labour, May & the Tories went onto win the GE.

May (Tory) is still the Prime Minister, and still promoting the message that the result of the 2016 referendum will be enacted.

So no change from 23rd June 2016.

All true, but still meaningless in a legal sense.

From a non-legal PoV, I find it interesting that the worry if we end up Remaining after say another vote is that it will be a massive betrayal of all the people who still want to leave and they'll be up in arms, never vote again etc etc. Not sure it's any different for those who want to Remain if we end up leaving with this crap deal or no deal because we aren't given a final say to make sure the country is still certain of its course. Indeed the resentment from Remainers will last a lot longer just due to demographics.

Interesting times to say the least.

It is very legal, it's a bill passed in parliament

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europ...

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

David Davis MP speech "Europe: It's Time To Decide" (19 November 2012)

[Russian Troll Bot]

Helicopter123 said:

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

David Davis MP speech "Europe: It's Time To Decide" (19 November 2012)

I trust you will start your campaign for a third referendum the day after your People's Vote?

[NoNeed]

Mario149 said:

NoNeed said:

It's a remain parliament, no deal will do it wants to remain and has no intention of allowing the government to implement the vote result

Parliamentary sovereignty FTW. Who knew we had it already?!

Basically, if we've learnt anything since 2016, it's that you can either have parliamentary sovereignty, or binding referenda, but not both. And pretending otherwise has got us into an awful pickle

Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 15th December 07:30

how is it sovereignty if they are just doing what the EU wants and not what the electorate have decided?

[saaby93]

NoNeed said:

Mario149 said:

NoNeed said:

It's a remain parliament, no deal will do it wants to remain and has no intention of allowing the government to implement the vote result

Parliamentary sovereignty FTW. Who knew we had it already?!

Basically, if we've learnt anything since 2016, it's that you can either have parliamentary sovereignty, or binding referenda, but not both. And pretending otherwise has got us into an awful pickle

Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 15th December 07:30

how is it sovereignty if they are just doing what the EU wants and not what the electorate have decided?

Electorate have decided to leave - thats currently happening on March 29th
Trade deal and border agreement put together by EU and UK that will operate from the same date, if everyone can stop bickering about it
Where does 'just doing what EU wants' come into it? Surely it's a long way from that.
Why not the UK is just doing what it wants?

Currently the poll here has shifted slightly to 64:36 exit vs remain- it was 65:35

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 15th December 12:57

[p1stonhead]

saaby93 said:

NoNeed said:

Mario149 said:

NoNeed said:

It's a remain parliament, no deal will do it wants to remain and has no intention of allowing the government to implement the vote result

Parliamentary sovereignty FTW. Who knew we had it already?!

Basically, if we've learnt anything since 2016, it's that you can either have parliamentary sovereignty, or binding referenda, but not both. And pretending otherwise has got us into an awful pickle

Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 15th December 07:30

how is it sovereignty if they are just doing what the EU wants and not what the electorate have decided?

Electorate have decided to leave - thats currently happening on March 29th
Trade deal and border agreement put together by EU and UK that will operate from the same date, if everyone can stop bickering about it
Where does 'just doing what EU wants' come into it? Surely it's a long way from that.
Why not the UK is just doing what it wants?

Currently the poll here has shifted slightly to 64:36 exit vs remain- it was 65:35

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 15th December 12:57

Because we triggered A50 with no idea what we wanted (still don’t 30 months later) and therefore our negotiating stance instantly became ‘if you don’t do what we say, we’re going to shoot ourselves in the head!’

Genius really.

[NoNeed]

saaby93 said:

Electorate have decided to leave - thats currently happening on March 29th

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 15th December 12:57

Do you really believe that?

[saaby93]

NoNeed said:

saaby93 said:

Electorate have decided to leave - that's currently happening on March 29th

Do you really believe that?

Of course. What's not true about it?

[wst]

NoNeed said:

saaby93 said:

Electorate have decided to leave - thats currently happening on March 29th

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 15th December 12:57

Do you really believe that?

It is an automatic process. It is the default event on the 29th of March.

[curlie467]

wst said:

NoNeed said:

saaby93 said:

Electorate have decided to leave - thats currently happening on March 29th

Edited by saaby93 on Saturday 15th December 12:57

Do you really believe that?

It is an automatic process. It is the default event on the 29th of March.

quite.

[gothatway]

Many Remainers complained that there should have been a threshold of 60 or 67% or whatever before the referendum vote could overturn the status quo. Do those same folk believe that a similar threshold should now be applied in any second ref as the status quo is currently that we're leaving ?

[Mario149]

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

don'tbesilly said:

Helicopter123 said:

wst said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Because many people understand that a statement from our government that:


Note: Government, not Party promise.

The Government can promise what it likes, it's not supreme. It's efforts have been found wanting, it's turned out a deal which literally no-one likes.

No government can bind a future government.

In that sense, the referendum was really pretty meaningless, in a legal sense.

Cameron (Tory) was responsible for the leaflet & Resigned

May (Tory) took up the vacant seat and reinforced the message and legacy of Cameron.

May (Tory) reinforced the original message of 2016 in the 2017 GE with their manifesto, as did Labour, May & the Tories went onto win the GE.

May (Tory) is still the Prime Minister, and still promoting the message that the result of the 2016 referendum will be enacted.

So no change from 23rd June 2016.

All true, but still meaningless in a legal sense.

From a non-legal PoV, I find it interesting that the worry if we end up Remaining after say another vote is that it will be a massive betrayal of all the people who still want to leave and they'll be up in arms, never vote again etc etc. Not sure it's any different for those who want to Remain if we end up leaving with this crap deal or no deal because we aren't given a final say to make sure the country is still certain of its course. Indeed the resentment from Remainers will last a lot longer just due to demographics.

Interesting times to say the least.

It is very legal, it's a bill passed in parliament

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europ...

Don't twist my point, you know full well what I meant i.e. the result of the referendum is not legally enforceable.

[Mario149]

ash73 said:

Mario149 said:

All true, but still meaningless in a legal sense because we didn't get what we want.

EFA

You too

[Mario149]

NoNeed said:

Mario149 said:

NoNeed said:

It's a remain parliament, no deal will do it wants to remain and has no intention of allowing the government to implement the vote result

Parliamentary sovereignty FTW. Who knew we had it already?!

Basically, if we've learnt anything since 2016, it's that you can either have parliamentary sovereignty, or binding referenda, but not both. And pretending otherwise has got us into an awful pickle

Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 15th December 07:30

how is it sovereignty if they are just doing what the EU wants and not what the electorate have decided?

They're making decisions in their capacity as MPs based on their judgement, not doing what the EU wants. You just don't like it. Vote out your MP next time if you don't like them. Or campaign to change the system.