Brexit Referendum - top two choices

Brexit Referendum - top two choices

Poll: Brexit Referendum - top two choices

Total Members Polled: 443

May's Deal then No Deal: 16%
No Deal then May's Deal: 24%
May's Deal then Remain: 7%
Remain then May's Deal: 23%
Remain then No Deal: 12%
No Deal then Remain: 19%
Author
Discussion

JuanCarlosFandango

7,787 posts

70 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Funny that the people who say we were confused, ill informed and misled by the first referendum now want to have a 3 way referendum with 3 unknown options to be confused, ill informed and misled about.

I presume that "lessons have been learned" and whatever the choices available in the next referendum they will be much more careful about who gets to campaign, donate money, have media coverage and vote in future.

Biker 1

7,696 posts

118 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Funny that the people who say we were confused, ill informed and misled by the first referendum now want to have a 3 way referendum with 3 unknown options to be confused, ill informed and misled about.

I presume that "lessons have been learned" and whatever the choices available in the next referendum they will be much more careful about who gets to campaign, donate money, have media coverage and vote in future.
I'll eat my hat if that ever happens!

City_boy

93 posts

64 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Helicopter123 said:
We regularly have elections in this country. Any party winning an election with a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum on any matter should be allowed to proceed. Tories and SNP both recent examples.
You seem to forget that the Tory manifesto was quite clear on how it would implement Brexit too, yet now (conveniently) want to ignore that.

City_boy

93 posts

64 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Helicopter123 said:
A democracy where the people cannot change their mind is no longer a democracy.
Limited evidence that the people have changed their mind.

Piha

7,150 posts

91 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
City_boy said:
You seem to forget that the Tory manifesto was quite clear on how it would implement Brexit too, yet now (conveniently) want to ignore that.
Then maybe you should ask yourself if the tories included any declaration of aims or policy in that manifesto that they clearly had little control over.

Surely you don't believe everything a political party says just to gain votes?

City_boy

93 posts

64 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
Then maybe you should ask yourself if the tories included any declaration of aims or policy in that manifesto that they clearly had little control over.

Surely you don't believe everything a political party says just to gain votes?
There were some quite explicit requirements, yes. Can I assume you don’t know what these were?

Alex

9,975 posts

283 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Helicopter123 said:
A democracy where the people cannot change their mind is no longer a democracy.
The referendum must be enacted first. If the people change their mind in the future, then there could be a referendum to rejoin the EU.


The Dangerous Elk

4,642 posts

76 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Alex said:
Helicopter123 said:
A democracy where the people cannot change their mind is no longer a democracy.
The referendum must be enacted first. If the people change their mind in the future, then there could be a referendum to rejoin the EU.


PRTVR

7,073 posts

220 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Russian Troll Bot said:
PRTVR said:
Helicopter123 said:
NoNeed said:
philv said:
It doesn’t hurt to double check and ask again.
funny how remainers say this yet didn't want us aske when the treaties like lisbon were signed.

Why is that?
A democracy where the people cannot change their mind is no longer a democracy.
But who decides that the people have changed their mind and a second referendum is necessary? Do we stop at two and why, people can change their mind all the time, permanent referendums it is then, or is it finished when the original vote is overturned as most people suspect.
I predict that referendums will be deemed necessary until we vote to remain in the EU
I agree, the people has spoken, remain, we need non of that inconvenient democracy now. hehe

Piha

7,150 posts

91 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
City_boy said:
Piha said:
Then maybe you should ask yourself if the tories included any declaration of aims or policy in that manifesto that they clearly had little control over.

Surely you don't believe everything a political party says just to gain votes?
There were some quite explicit requirements, yes. Can I assume you don’t know what these were?
The tories are of little interest to me. Anyone that believes what any politician of any flavour pledges, really deserves all they get imo. Just so we are clear, did you vote on the back of the pledges offered in their manifesto?

oyster

12,577 posts

247 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Biker 1 said:
Helicopter123 said:
We regularly have elections in this country. Any party winning an election with a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum on any matter should be allowed to proceed. Tories and SNP both recent examples.
Not sure that was in the tory 2017 manifesto. In fact, I seem to recall something about leaving the EU.
Yes but like all manifesto pledges it has to be voted by Parliament. If Parliament votes against a pledge then it won't get enacted.

Brexit is no different. And why should it be?

City_boy

93 posts

64 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
The tories are of little interest to me.
So to be clear, you’re commenting on something you have no knowledge of?

Russian Troll Bot

24,942 posts

226 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
City_boy said:
Helicopter123 said:
A democracy where the people cannot change their mind is no longer a democracy.
Limited evidence that the people have changed their mind.
Isn't it odd how this argument has only cropped up in the last 2 years, whereas the original opinion was considered settled since 1975.

The Dangerous Elk

4,642 posts

76 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
oyster said:
Yes but like all manifesto pledges it has to be voted by Parliament. If Parliament votes against a pledge then it won't get enacted.

Brexit is no different. And why should it be?
Because many people understand that a statement from our government that:


Note: Government, not Party promise.

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
amusingduck said:
Your proposed 2nd ref question doesn't meet the guidelines IMO.

A referendum question should present the options clearly, simply and neutrally. So it should:
• be easy to understand
• be to the point
• be unambiguous
• avoid encouraging voters to consider one response more favourably than another
• avoid misleading voters

• Is the question written in plain language? That is, language that:
– uses short sentences (around 15–20 words)
– is simple, direct, and concise
– uses familiar words, and avoids jargon or technical terms that would not be easily understood by most people
• Is the question written in neutral language, avoiding words that suggest a judgement or opinion, either explicitly or implicitly?
• Is the information contained in the question factual, describing the question and the options clearly and accurately?
• Does the question avoid assuming anything about voters’ views?
The first referendum failed on those grounds, so it's a bit of a moot point, surely?
The first referendum question failed on these grounds?

How?

Polite M135 driver

1,853 posts

83 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Leicester Loyal said:
No deal then remain.

But by having 3 choices, it's splitting up votes.

It should be leave with no deal or leave with May's deal, we've already chosen to leave.
not everyone who votes in the 2nd referendum will have been able to vote in the first, so it's essential that those voters are given the opportunity to express their opinion whether 'to Brexit, or not to brexit?' right? It would be democratically unfair to do otherwise.

The Dangerous Elk

4,642 posts

76 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
the "Always unanswered" question.

Why not a third ref, a fourth, a fifth ?

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Polite M135 driver said:
not everyone who votes in the 2nd referendum will have been able to vote in the first, so it's essential that those voters are given the opportunity to express their opinion whether 'to Brexit, or not to brexit?' right? It would be democratically unfair to do otherwise.
not everyone who votes in the 3rd referendum will have been able to vote in the second, so it's essential that those voters are given the opportunity to express their opinion whether 'to Brexit, or not to brexit?' right? It would be democratically unfair to do otherwise.

Polite M135 driver

1,853 posts

83 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
City_boy said:
Helicopter123 said:
A democracy where the people cannot change their mind is no longer a democracy.
Limited evidence that the people have changed their mind.
'The People' change their mind even without 'people' changing their mind... leavers have been dying whilst remainers (who see their right to live and work in Europe as important, what with their whole lives ahead of them) are becoming eligible to vote.


Polite M135 driver

1,853 posts

83 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Personally I do think it's important that, if we are going to make decisions by referendum, the referendum is enacted in a timely way. Because otherwise you are acting on outdated information. If we found out the government were making policy decisions on information that is 2 years out of date, we would rightly be angry. So now we have a deal, put it to the people to vote on, now we have (more, although still scant) details. That way we get the highest possible fidelity decision.