How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

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alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
tumble dryer said:
Tuna said:
Ghibli said:
I guess the real question is would you vote for Brexit knowing that Mays deal is what you are voting for.
What a ridiculous question. You know full well that pretty much no-one who voted Leave wanted what May's deal is threatening to deliver. It's being referred to as Remain minus minus for a reason.

You also know (or at least have been told, repeatedly) that an FTA agreement was reached early on in the discussions, but was discarded by May.

So by any stretch, May's deal is not the only possible outcome of voting to Leave (a different set of negotiators may well have reached a different agreement), and there is still plenty of time for us to move to something that looks like a stronger position for leaving (May has to hold on for quite a while yet if her deal is going to be the one we sign off).

A cynical person might think you were asking deliberately provocative questions in order to get a rise from those evil Leavers. That would be unfortunate, as I believe people get breaks from posting if they are seen to be trolling. Posting endless series of 'leading questions' is not really a positive way to contribute to the threads on here.
Well said.
Hard to understand why anyone would even bother to read his posts let alone reply to him

seapod

212 posts

198 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
There is a new generation of voters that weren't allowed to vote in the previous referendum and surely it would be democratic to allow this new generation of voters to have a say in their future?

These young 'uns are desperate to have their say in their future, they are intelligent, informed and in my opinion it would be incredibly disrespectful and undemocratic not allow the young 'uns a vote. Go and talk to some young people and see how they feel, many of them are starting to feel incredibly resentful of the old people and their perceived selfishness.
But surely you could just keep this argument going forever? What about the 16 year olds who would miss out on the vote tomorrow? The ten year olds? The toddlers?
The twinkle in their parents eyes....

It's in my view very dangerous to start messing with the principles of the democratic ballot. It would spill over into domestic politics very quickly and unleash a state of anarchy/constipation as every marginal decision would be met with the same argument of 'do nothing until we rerun the same vote

I'm not sure that benefits anyone

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
There is a new generation of voters that weren't allowed to vote in the previous referendum and surely it would be democratic to allow this new generation of voters to have a say in their future?

These young 'uns are desperate to have their say in their future, they are intelligent, informed and in my opinion it would be incredibly disrespectful and undemocratic not allow the young 'uns a vote. Go and talk to some young people and see how they feel, many of them are starting to feel incredibly resentful of the old people and their perceived selfishness.
It's been asked, again and again, what exactly the question would be that we would ask these enthusiastic new voters? As ever, the answers are lacking.

I'm tending to the view that we've demonstrated Brexit is not well represented by binary yes/no questions, and requires someone to weigh up a complex set of compromises. Ask the public and you won't ever get an answer that can be usefully applied to a negotiation - the two processes are almost wholly incompatible.

The point of the Referendum was to decide a direction (in or out) and then leave the government to implement that. Asking again doesn't solve any problems, or show some magic new understanding, or even fix the current impasse. This is actually where we as a democracy do have to rely on the Government, and parliament - and despite two years of screwing around I'm still vaguely optimistic that letting the government argue it out is probably our best option. This is where people who have made Brexit their area of expertise are needed, and where politicians have to make decisions that they know at least some of the people will be unhappy with.

So, even though the people we put in charge have brought us to the brink of disaster, and even though partisan politics is still pushing for choices that are not realistic, and even though some opportunists are using this difficult time to try and push a deeply undemocratic agenda - I'd rather our elected representatives were held accountable and made to have the difficult discussions and actually apply some critical thinking, than go to the public and ask a question that will clearly have been prejudiced by two years of fking around.

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
Like any astute observer, they can see Brexit is dying . They are helping Parliament remove No Deal as an option and can sit back and watch the drama unfold.

'No Deal' is dead, it just needs to be dealt with formally. It is amazing some still live in a desperate fantasy bubble and think it could still happen. It most definitely will not.

The EU want the UK to reconsider and, ideally, remain as Members. They will help facilitate this, as I have oft posted in these Threads.

TM's Deal is the 'hardest' of Brexits you are going to get. Obviously, Leavers can disagree, but should consider that they have been wrong about everything since the start of the Brexit Farce and will continue to be wrong.

Eventually, Leavers will have to accept their Dream is over. At least until they can muster support for another go in the Future.
You know the bit in the movie where the Baddie is finally confronted by Our Hero, and they cannot resist gloating and explaining exactly how they're going to carry out their evil plot?

That's how your posts come across biggrin

Even people who were rooting for your side are now shifting uncomfortably in their seats, thinking, "uh oh, this doesn't sound right".

gooner1

10,223 posts

178 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
jsf said:
I would suggest no deal is far more likely now than it was 2 days ago.

The game has been rumbled, May is toast and will be gone next week.

Despite all the extra noise grieves amendment will generate it doesn't change the law which has the leave date set in a way that even if the EU grant an extension, UK cant accept it.
So change the date.
1/1/2019 ok for you.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Tuna said:
Ghibli said:
I guess the real question is would you vote for Brexit knowing that Mays deal is what you are voting for.
What a ridiculous question. You know full well that pretty much no-one who voted Leave wanted what May's deal is threatening to deliver. It's being referred to as Remain minus minus for a reason.

You also know (or at least have been told, repeatedly) that an FTA agreement was reached early on in the discussions, but was discarded by May.

So by any stretch, May's deal is not the only possible outcome of voting to Leave (a different set of negotiators may well have reached a different agreement), and there is still plenty of time for us to move to something that looks like a stronger position for leaving (May has to hold on for quite a while yet if her deal is going to be the one we sign off).

A cynical person might think you were asking deliberately provocative questions in order to get a rise from those evil Leavers. That would be unfortunate, as I believe people get breaks from posting if they are seen to be trolling. Posting endless series of 'leading questions' is not really a positive way to contribute to the threads on here.
Although it's upsetting for some, Mays deal is what has been negotiated and by all accounts what leave voters voted for whether that like it or not.

Im not sure why you are bothered about me asking the question when you voted remain. I can only guess you are trolling to get a reaction. What positive imput do you think you are providing by ignoring the question which is legitimate.

Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
There is a new generation of voters that weren't allowed to vote in the previous referendum and surely it would be democratic to allow this new generation of voters to have a say in their future?

These young 'uns are desperate to have their say in their future, they are intelligent, informed and in my opinion it would be incredibly disrespectful and undemocratic not allow the young 'uns a vote. Go and talk to some young people and see how they feel, many of them are starting to feel incredibly resentful of the old people and their perceived selfishness.
Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make something any more valid you know. It just prompts the same responses.

If ANY Remain advocates had suggested BEFORE the vote that this vote would be run, and then re-run a couple of years down the line just in case people had changed their minds, before we actually did anything I'd have much more time for this claptrap.

However what actually happened was that the full weight of the Remain campaign, with all its dignitaries, the great, the good, the handsome, young and erudite noted this was a once in a generation vote and that it would be decided on a binary question and 1 vote would seal it.

Why did they say this? Because they thought they would win and it never, ever entered into those massive brains that the vote could go the other way. The young were evidently so sure that they stayed in bed. Just as the young always do with voting.

Unless you can show us some evidence that you were shouting from the rooftops about "once in a generation being hasty regardless of the result" and "1 vote wins it is wrong" before the vote, leave that whole line of argument where you found it (in your box of Kleenex). Otherwise you just look daft smile

And in the spirit of repeating the same things in response to your suggestion...for every young person who comes of voting age and promises to get out of bed to vote, there's one older person who's become that bit enough more disillusioned with big politics and the EU and will get off the fence and vote Leave. In fact as life expectancy increases and birth rates decrease there are quite probably more people getting old, ugly and racist who would change their minds too smile

And for every poll you can show me that proves how wrong this is, I'll show you all the polls pre-referendum and we can compare them to the actual result smile

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Ghibli said:
Although it's upsetting for some, Mays deal is what has been negotiated and by all accounts what leave voters voted for whether that like it or not.

Im not sure why you are bothered about me asking the question when you voted remain. I can only guess you are trolling to get a reaction. What positive imput do you think you are providing by ignoring the question which is legitimate.
I'm bothered because by asking antagonistic questions, you've burnt through what little good will Remain had. You're a walking advert for voting Leave.

Misrepresenting "what leave voters voted for" doesn't make a case for Remain, doesn't endear Remain to anyone and doesn't do a thing for the current situation. May's deal is bad for everybody - and personally, I'd like to see a positive outcome from these negotiations, regardless of what I wanted from the Referendum.

You just seem to be itching for a fight, and sorry, I'm not going to give you one.

Troubleatmill

10,210 posts

158 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
Balmoral said:
Question for the remainers calling for a second referendum. If the vote had gone your way and leave was calling for a second referendum, you would be supporting that entirely wouldn't you?
Did Farage not say that if it was 52/48 against leave he would want another vote ?

Mogg even suggested we had one vote first followed by a second on the deal.
And Mogg was told it would not happen.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Tuna said:
I'm bothered because by asking antagonistic questions, you've burnt through what little good will Remain had. You're a walking advert for voting Leave.

Misrepresenting "what leave voters voted for" doesn't make a case for Remain, doesn't endear Remain to anyone and doesn't do a thing for the current situation. May's deal is bad for everybody - and personally, I'd like to see a positive outcome from these negotiations, regardless of what I wanted from the Referendum.

You just seem to be itching for a fight, and sorry, I'm not going to give you one.
I hate to break it to you Tuna, I didn't negotiate Mays deal for her.

I have simply asked if people would have voted to leave knowing that Mays deal would be the outcome.

I guess it's all just to much for you to take in. But if you think that a FTA was agreed in the early stages of the negotiations that's up to you. In reality Mays deal is what is being agreed in the UK/EU negotiations.

Crackie

6,386 posts

241 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
There is a new generation of voters that weren't allowed to vote in the previous referendum and surely it would be democratic to allow this new generation of voters to have a say in their future?

These young 'uns are desperate to have their say in their future, they are intelligent, informed and in my opinion it would be incredibly disrespectful and undemocratic not allow the young 'uns a vote. Go and talk to some young people and see how they feel, many of them are starting to feel incredibly resentful of the old people and their perceived selfishness.
You forgot to mention older leaver voters who have died since the 2016 too. rofl


Edited by Crackie on Thursday 6th December 22:59

dangerousB

1,693 posts

189 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Piha said:
There is a new generation of voters that weren't allowed to vote in the previous referendum and surely it would be democratic to allow this new generation of voters to have a say in their future?
Can you see a massive flaw in that gem of logic you've given us?

mx5nut

5,404 posts

81 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Russian Troll Bot said:
Except that you are wanting extra democracy before the previous democracy has been enacted.
Then get on with it, get behind the negotiated deal and stop trying to frustrate Brexit!

Russian Troll Bot said:
We were told in no uncertain terms that this was a once in a generation vote
Remember when you guys used to at least pretend to want parliament to be sovereign? (i.e not bound by the words of a previous government!)

crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
mx5nut said:
Russian Troll Bot said:
Except that you are wanting extra democracy before the previous democracy has been enacted.
Then get on with it, get behind the negotiated deal and stop trying to frustrate Brexit!

Russian Troll Bot said:
We were told in no uncertain terms that this was a once in a generation vote
Remember when you guys used to at least pretend to want parliament to be sovereign? (i.e not bound by the words of a previous government!)
Think we all want the brexit debarcle to be concluded as quickly as possible, if only to hear the last cries of agony from the remain camp.

Crackie

6,386 posts

241 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Crackie said:
Coolbanana said:
The EU want the UK to reconsider and, ideally, remain as Members. They will help facilitate this, as I have oft posted in these Threads.
If you've oft posted this, you've hopefully thought about it a great deal. The UK are the awkward, difficult ones on the periphery of the EU who have negotiated special status and vetos and rebates and propriety exemptions from several of the major protocols. The EU is currently more unpopular in the UK than at any time since its inception; why are they so keen for us to stay in and go so far as to actively facilitate the UK remaining as members?

Coolbanana said:
TM's Deal is the 'hardest' of Brexits you are going to get.
Probably but we'll see.

Coolbanana said:
but should consider that they have been wrong about everything since the start
Dim generalisations like that do you no favours; you assume too much. It's played out pretty much as I'd expected since May was appointed and her alliance with OR was exposed.

Coolbanana said:
of the Brexit Farce
rolleyes

Coolbanana said:
will continue to be wrong.
Wrong about what? More assumptions about ideas that 17.4 million people might or might not have in the future.

Coolbanana said:
Eventually, Leavers will have to accept their Dream is over.
Your choice of the word dream and using a capital is telling.

Coolbanana said:
At least until they can muster support for another go in the Future.
If the UK does eventually remain then, of course, there will be ongoing campaigns until parliament / government does what it was elected to do i.e. enact the will of the majority in a democracy. Recent events have exposed the EU's MO to many who were not interested or engaged prior to Brexit; they now understand about May's deceitfulness, the clandestine nature of Selmayr's appointment, Soros' pervasive influence, EU army, T2 risk, the reasons driving political unrest in Sweden, Greece, Italy, France etc etc. Do you think, if the result is remain this time, that the result of the ensuing referendum will only be 52:48?

Some of your posts in November were pragmatic and some of the best in Vol 5 but recently you've returned to your alter ego. Disappointing.
Coolbanana….is there any reason you've not answered the questions asked above? tumbleweed

Tony427

2,873 posts

232 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
fk it.

I’m gonna buy a house in Ireland.
You'll find thousands to choose from, some are even on buy one get one free.

Large estates empty and abandoned because the Irish had to export their youth when the EU imposed austerity on the Irish Government.

At least you will be able to say that you have benefitted from the EU Economic policies.

dasigty

587 posts

80 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
What you are being fed from the MSM is yet more nonsense, France is not JUST about a fuel tax, nor is what is happening in Belgium and Germany being covered, the people have had enough of the lying swine playing global politics with their money.

If its just about the fuel issue, and the government have already scrapped it, why?, unless you like the smell of burning cars and tear gas, France/Belgium/Germany should be avoided this week end.
This is NOT the usual rent a mob, in fact the left and right are on the same page, they have the majority of the French populations support, go and check out the many videos on youtube to see that its middle France on the streets.

Long story short, the French government HAVE to balance the budget the EU have set, the tax rise gets cancelled only at the expense of cuts to services, there is now a majority shown in polls for a French exit from the EU.

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make something any more valid you know. It just prompts the same responses.

If ANY Remain advocates had suggested BEFORE the vote that this vote would be run, and then re-run a couple of years down the line just in case people had changed their minds, before we actually did anything I'd have much more time for this claptrap.

However what actually happened was that the full weight of the Remain campaign, with all its dignitaries, the great, the good, the handsome, young and erudite noted this was a once in a generation vote and that it would be decided on a binary question and 1 vote would seal it.

Why did they say this? Because they thought they would win and it never, ever entered into those massive brains that the vote could go the other way. The young were evidently so sure that they stayed in bed. Just as the young always do with voting.

Unless you can show us some evidence that you were shouting from the rooftops about "once in a generation being hasty regardless of the result" and "1 vote wins it is wrong" before the vote, leave that whole line of argument where you found it (in your box of Kleenex). Otherwise you just look daft smile

And in the spirit of repeating the same things in response to your suggestion...for every young person who comes of voting age and promises to get out of bed to vote, there's one older person who's become that bit enough more disillusioned with big politics and the EU and will get off the fence and vote Leave. In fact as life expectancy increases and birth rates decrease there are quite probably more people getting old, ugly and racist who would change their minds too smile

And for every poll you can show me that proves how wrong this is, I'll show you all the polls pre-referendum and we can compare them to the actual result smile
clapclapclap

philv

3,911 posts

213 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Crackie said:
Piha said:
There is a new generation of voters that weren't allowed to vote in the previous referendum and surely it would be democratic to allow this new generation of voters to have a say in their future?

These young 'uns are desperate to have their say in their future, they are intelligent, informed and in my opinion it would be incredibly disrespectful and undemocratic not allow the young 'uns a vote. Go and talk to some young people and see how they feel, many of them are starting to feel incredibly resentful of the old people and their perceived selfishness.
You forgot to mention older leaver voters who have died since the 2016 too. rofl


Edited by Crackie on Thursday 6th December 22:59
If article 50 were to be extended a further 2 years, that would be 5 years since the referendum.

Isn’t that long enough to think about checking what people still want?

Exactly how many years have to go by?
Should we wait till every voter in tne last referendum has died perhaps.

I think too much time has passed and too much has happened for the result of the last referendum to still be sound.

First time out few people had a clue about tne consequences of what they were voting for/against.
They do now.
They know more of the consequences and more about the eu.

So a srcond referendum would be more sound.

If anyone dissagrees, please tell me how many years must pass before we need to have abother referendum to be sure? Where abouts between 5 years and eternity?






wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
philv said:
If article 50 were to be extended a further 2 years, that would be 5 years since the referendum.

Isn’t that long enough to think about checking what people still want?

Exactly how many years have to go by?
Should we wait till every voter in tne last referendum has died perhaps.

I think too much time has passed and too much has happened for the result of the last referendum to still be sound.

First time out few people had a clue about tne consequences of what they were voting for/against.
They do now.
They know more of the consequences and more about the eu.

So a srcond referendum would be more sound.

If anyone dissagrees, please tell me how many years must pass before we need to have abother referendum to be sure? Where abouts between 5 years and eternity?
do they ? news to me. much water to pass under the bridge before we know exactly what form of leave we will get.
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