How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

Author
Discussion

Tuna

8,912 posts

220 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
I have a lot of business interests, colleagues and friends in Europe, particularly towards the eastern fringes. In those countries, the populations would fall over themselves to hand all power to the EU on account of the ineffective governance of their own countries by their own governments. For similar reasons, you have countries like Bosnia and Albania desperate to join.
I can never understand how that works - the EU has been very clear that it is not responsible for the structural problems of Greece, Italy etc. Joining requires that you increase your responsibilities, not hand them over to some magic central brain that solves all problems.

It's almost as if joining is seen as an easy way to get access to slush funds and vanity projects smile

The repeated fallacy is that a remote, faceless authority is commonly seen to be far more 'trustworthy' than the people you see directly, warts and all.


The Dangerous Elk

4,143 posts

13 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
And where did Macron come from other than a last desperate attempt to stem the rise of Anti EU/Dissatisfaction with the Status Quo ?, not going well in France is it.

Just because you live in a Pro-Eu friends/work bubble does not make you correct.

Vanden Saab

1,124 posts

10 months

Friday 7th December
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SpeckledJim said:
"The Eurobarometer survey commissioned by the European Parliament..."

Brilliant. I've also held a poll in our house, and it turns out I'm the best dad in the world, and the missus is the best cook!
Am I the only one who read the last line wrong....

kayc

3,695 posts

157 months

Friday 7th December
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toppstuff said:
Yes they have. The Irish resurgence is not driven by dodgy mortgages this time around. It’s just solid economic growth.

It’s a lot more Dublin focused than before however. Dublin is getting very expensive. The rest of the country is still affordable.

Meantime, Ireland has thousands of British professionals trying to get access to their market. For example, the Irish Law Society is inundated with applications from Brits wanting to practise in Ireland.

Even the taxi drivers are cheerful.
Whats the magic formula then that they have discovered that we haven't?Super low corporation tax that the Eu is trying to stop us having when we leave the Eu?smile

toppstuff

12,273 posts

183 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
The Dangerous Elk said:
And where did Macron come from other than a last desperate attempt to stem the rise of Anti EU/Dissatisfaction with the Status Quo ?, not going well in France is it.

Just because you live in a Pro-Eu friends/work bubble does not make you correct.
And just because you live in an anti-EU
-raging-at-the- Eurocrats bubble doesn’t make you right either.

I spend maybe 50% of my time in the countries I’ve mentioned. People don’t regard the EU as perfect - they get frustrated too - but they generally get on with their lives and being Dutch / Irish / German and enjoying their customs and identities. They don’t feel the need to express some nationalistic force. They are pragmatic and just get on with life.

Truly most of them think we are a strange bunch worrying about all the wrong things. Inside the EU they feel safe and stable. They are free to do what they want, get care when sick and educated well. The rest is up to them- they don’t need to be on some independence crusade to an unknown destination like the Brits do.



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gooner1

4,321 posts

115 months

Friday 7th December
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biggles330d said:
No, that's not what I said. But is there anyone in the country who voted in 2016 for Brexit and is sitting here now thinking "well, this is exactly how I hoped it would turn out"? Brexit appears to cover the full spectrum from a light touch in name only partial separation to full exit and WTO rules. That's the point. What 'leaving the EU' actually meant in 2016 was never defined and cannot be agreed on now by any party it seems.

People claim they knew what they were voting for and that's probably true - any one of those positions in that spectrum that aligned with their individual view.

I vaguely recall chat about Gibralter being difficult in 2016 but nothing from Gove, Farage, Johnston etc that Northern Island would be an intractable problem. Lots of motherhood and apple pie about huge sums washing back into the NHS, controlling immigration, being able to do the easiest deal in history with the EU because it's in our mutual interest. All of it has proven to be piss and wind.

I conceded that perhaps there are opportunities out of the EU and being in or out is a personal viewpoint both that have merits but what we have is a complete self-imposed mess.

Someone above said that the EU genie is out of the bottle and will be a constant theme going forward. Ok, that's fine, but we've been in for 45 years so what's so wrong with taking an election round and properly thinking it through as to what Brexit should mean next time if it came to it? in 2016 most of the political elite and business world were totally caught out with the yes vote. We've bungled through this with no agreement or clarity between ourselves on what it meant and what we want. We're in a mess and are 95% unprepared if the wheels properly fall off and we crash out in March. Nobody want's that, but nobody can agree as what we want as an alternative either and the cliff is fast approaching while we bicker.
Why do some posters and MP's insist that the UK has been a member of the EU for 45 years.
There was no EU until 1993. What we have now is not an Economic Commumity, if it were it is miserably failing several of it's members seemingly for the advancement of others.


1993
The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957. Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC).
European Economic Community - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Europea...

toppstuff

12,273 posts

183 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
kayc said:
hats the magic formula then that they have discovered that we haven't?Super low corporation tax that the Eu is trying to stop us having when we leave the Eu?smile
Huh ??? Ireland is IN the EU and has super low corporation tax. This simply confirms that EU states can set their own tax rules. Duh...

Note that Ireland has a special approach to taxes. Corporation Taxes are very low to attract jobs - but personal taxes are very high. So they have pretty much FULL employment in Ireland because companies like going there and creating jobs, but personal income tax is higher than UK.

Tuna

8,912 posts

220 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
Truly most of them think we are a strange bunch worrying about all the wrong things. Inside the EU they feel safe and stable. They are free to do what they want, get care when sick and educated well. The rest is up to them- they don’t need to be on some independence crusade to an unknown destination like the Brits do.
I would suggest that most of them feel safe and stable and don't ascribe that feeling to membership of a distant political construct.

Are they any better at knowing their MEP's names than we are? Do they wave EU flags at parties? Or are they just getting on with their lives as most people do and not looking much further than their commute to work and holidays with their families?

kayc

3,695 posts

157 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
And just because you live in an anti-EU
-raging-at-the- Eurocrats bubble doesn’t make you right either.

I spend maybe 50% of my time in the countries I’ve mentioned. People don’t regard the EU as perfect - they get frustrated too - but they generally get on with their lives and being Dutch / Irish / German and enjoying their customs and identities. They don’t feel the need to express some nationalistic force. They are pragmatic and just get on with life.

Truly most of them think we are a strange bunch worrying about all the wrong things. Inside the EU they feel safe and stable. They are free to do what they want, get care when sick and educated well. The rest is up to them- they don’t need to be on some independence crusade to an unknown destination like the Brits do.
Unfortunately that ambivalence and 'whatever' attitude didn't work out well historically did it?This stty little Island that you seem to believe us to be stood up then too..makes me sick the lack of pride and confidence people like you have with this country..i seriously don't understand that if its so st here you and others with your opinions don't just leave..its not compulsory to live here.

JNW1

4,033 posts

130 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
Your You're still adapting the facts to fit your beliefs rather than interpret them to test and check your beliefs.
Wise up.
But the "facts" to which you refer is actually a poll commissioned by an institution of the EU (so hardly independent!). Moreover, it suggests the UK is pro-EU when it's quite clearly not; therefore, why should anyone believe anything else that's in there?

toppstuff

12,273 posts

183 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Tuna said:
I would suggest that most of them feel safe and stable and don't ascribe that feeling to membership of a distant political construct.

Are they any better at knowing their MEP's names than we are? Do they wave EU flags at parties? Or are they just getting on with their lives as most people do and not looking much further than their commute to work and holidays with their families?
No I would say you are wrong there.

Most of them at some high level “ get” the big picture plan of the EU. They are all acutely aware of their history as occupied lands that were razed in the war. They know the EU was created out of the ashes of this to provide sustainable peace. They get that. And it’s important. So I think you’re wrong. The “political construct “ is important.

It doesn’t stop Dutch people taking the mickey out of Belgians or Germans insulting the French. But they all seem to be laughing at the Brits with alarm. Like an old uncle who starts banging his head against the wall and won’t stop. It’s a mix of mocking laughter and concern.

The Dangerous Elk

4,143 posts

13 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
And just because you live in an anti-EU
-raging-at-the- Eurocrats bubble doesn’t make you right either.

I spend maybe 50% of my time in the countries I’ve mentioned. The people I mix with don’t regard the EU as perfect - they get frustrated too - but they generally get on with their lives and being Dutch / Irish / German and enjoying their customs and identities. They don’t feel the need to express some nationalistic force. They are pragmatic and just get on with life.

Truly most of them think we are a strange bunch worrying about all the wrong things. Inside the EU they feel safe and stable. They are free to do what they want, get care when sick and educated well. The rest is up to them- they don’t need to be on some independence crusade to an unknown destination like the Brits do.
Nationalistic or Patriotism, simplistic lawyer trick words there chum.

Brexit is basically a Patriotic reaction to the federal dogma propagandised by the Eu. (with a sprinkle of nutter in the same way as pro Eu)



toppstuff

12,273 posts

183 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
JNW1 said:
But the "facts" to which you refer is actually a poll commissioned by an institution of the EU (so hardly independent!). Moreover, it suggests the UK is pro-EU when it's quite clearly not; therefore, why should anyone believe anything else that's in there?
It’s just one data point. There are plenty of others. It’s not hard to find them. Don’t be obtuse.

SpeckledJim

16,203 posts

189 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
Tuna said:
I would suggest that most of them feel safe and stable and don't ascribe that feeling to membership of a distant political construct.

Are they any better at knowing their MEP's names than we are? Do they wave EU flags at parties? Or are they just getting on with their lives as most people do and not looking much further than their commute to work and holidays with their families?
No I would say you are wrong there.

Most of them at some high level “ get” the big picture plan of the EU. They are all acutely aware of their history as occupied lands that were razed in the war. They know the EU was created out of the ashes of this to provide sustainable peace. They get that. And it’s important. So I think you’re wrong. The “political construct “ is important.

It doesn’t stop Dutch people taking the mickey out of Belgians or Germans insulting the French. But they all seem to be laughing at the Brits with alarm. Like an old uncle who starts banging his head against the wall and won’t stop. It’s a mix of mocking laughter and concern.
Any of them have a plan for the Euro?

amusingduck

3,245 posts

72 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
Any of them have a plan for the Euro?
That one's easy - it's the same answer that you can use for any of the EU's seemingly insolvable issues.

There'll be a political solution.

There you go biggrin

JNW1

4,033 posts

130 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
gooner1 said:
Why do some posters and MP's insist that the UK has been a member of the EU for 45 years.
]There was no EU until 1993. What we have now is not an Economic Commumity, if it were it is miserably failing several of it's members seemingly for the advancement of others.
And with the wisdom of hindsight if we were going to hold a referendum about the nature of our relationship with what was about to become the EU it should probably have happened in 1992/93. Some very significant changes took place at that time and if the people were going to be given a say it should have been then IMO....

SpeckledJim

16,203 posts

189 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
amusingduck said:
SpeckledJim said:
Any of them have a plan for the Euro?
That one's easy - it's the same answer that you can use for any of the EU's seemingly insolvable issues.

There'll be a political solution.

There you go biggrin
Ta, my safe and stable levels have returned to the green quadrant. Is there a political solution to mass youth unemployment and dying communities? I do hope so.

Tony427

1,877 posts

169 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Saw two interesting pieces on the TV last night. First was on Channel 5 , a Vox Pop held in a factory in the north East. About 20 employees who in a series of questions made it clear that they thought Brexit was being stolen from them. It was apparent that they did not trust politicians. Furthermore only one person wanted a new referendum. Looking at the single arm raised in response when he asked the question the response of the presenter was " You're joking, just one!" London remainer not understanding rest of country shock.

Second bit was in This Week. Liz Kendall and Sam Gyimah, both punting for a new referendum. Asked what the question should be both didn't have a clue, indeed even to the number of options that should be on the paper. The confusion that abounded had both Portillo and Neil chuckling away.

The concensus of opinion was that this Brexit debacle was going to go on for years.

Which begs the question, who will get the blame forthis continued drama and strife?

The Leavers who simply voted to leave the EU despite all the warning of Armagedon etc, or the Remainers who chose not only not to respect the democratic vote of the people in the Referendum but also the following GE in which 80% of voters supported parties that promised to carry out their wishes, and who have sought to frustrate and derail Brexit at every single opportunity.

Who will angry, dissaffected voters blame?

Cheers,

Tony


toppstuff

12,273 posts

183 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
pgh said:
All getting a bit much for you? The other poster didn't start name calling or use foul language.
I won’t have my pride in this country challenged like that. Reported to mods.

saaby93

24,373 posts

114 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Has anyone posted that Norway rejects the UK joining EFTA?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/n...