How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
JNW1 said:
But the "facts" to which you refer is actually a poll commissioned by an institution of the EU (so hardly independent!). Moreover, it suggests the UK is pro-EU when it's quite clearly not; therefore, why should anyone believe anything else that's in there?
It’s just one data point. There are plenty of others. It’s not hard to find them. Don’t be obtuse. toppstuff said:
Tuna said:
I would suggest that most of them feel safe and stable and don't ascribe that feeling to membership of a distant political construct.
Are they any better at knowing their MEP's names than we are? Do they wave EU flags at parties? Or are they just getting on with their lives as most people do and not looking much further than their commute to work and holidays with their families?
No I would say you are wrong there. Are they any better at knowing their MEP's names than we are? Do they wave EU flags at parties? Or are they just getting on with their lives as most people do and not looking much further than their commute to work and holidays with their families?
Most of them at some high level “ get” the big picture plan of the EU. They are all acutely aware of their history as occupied lands that were razed in the war. They know the EU was created out of the ashes of this to provide sustainable peace. They get that. And it’s important. So I think you’re wrong. The “political construct “ is important.
It doesn’t stop Dutch people taking the mickey out of Belgians or Germans insulting the French. But they all seem to be laughing at the Brits with alarm. Like an old uncle who starts banging his head against the wall and won’t stop. It’s a mix of mocking laughter and concern.
gooner1 said:
Why do some posters and MP's insist that the UK has been a member of the EU for 45 years.
]There was no EU until 1993. What we have now is not an Economic Commumity, if it were it is miserably failing several of it's members seemingly for the advancement of others.
And with the wisdom of hindsight if we were going to hold a referendum about the nature of our relationship with what was about to become the EU it should probably have happened in 1992/93. Some very significant changes took place at that time and if the people were going to be given a say it should have been then IMO....]There was no EU until 1993. What we have now is not an Economic Commumity, if it were it is miserably failing several of it's members seemingly for the advancement of others.
amusingduck said:
SpeckledJim said:
Any of them have a plan for the Euro?
That one's easy - it's the same answer that you can use for any of the EU's seemingly insolvable issues.There'll be a political solution.
There you go
Saw two interesting pieces on the TV last night. First was on Channel 5 , a Vox Pop held in a factory in the north East. About 20 employees who in a series of questions made it clear that they thought Brexit was being stolen from them. It was apparent that they did not trust politicians. Furthermore only one person wanted a new referendum. Looking at the single arm raised in response when he asked the question the response of the presenter was " You're joking, just one!" London remainer not understanding rest of country shock.
Second bit was in This Week. Liz Kendall and Sam Gyimah, both punting for a new referendum. Asked what the question should be both didn't have a clue, indeed even to the number of options that should be on the paper. The confusion that abounded had both Portillo and Neil chuckling away.
The concensus of opinion was that this Brexit debacle was going to go on for years.
Which begs the question, who will get the blame forthis continued drama and strife?
The Leavers who simply voted to leave the EU despite all the warning of Armagedon etc, or the Remainers who chose not only not to respect the democratic vote of the people in the Referendum but also the following GE in which 80% of voters supported parties that promised to carry out their wishes, and who have sought to frustrate and derail Brexit at every single opportunity.
Who will angry, dissaffected voters blame?
Cheers,
Tony
Second bit was in This Week. Liz Kendall and Sam Gyimah, both punting for a new referendum. Asked what the question should be both didn't have a clue, indeed even to the number of options that should be on the paper. The confusion that abounded had both Portillo and Neil chuckling away.
The concensus of opinion was that this Brexit debacle was going to go on for years.
Which begs the question, who will get the blame forthis continued drama and strife?
The Leavers who simply voted to leave the EU despite all the warning of Armagedon etc, or the Remainers who chose not only not to respect the democratic vote of the people in the Referendum but also the following GE in which 80% of voters supported parties that promised to carry out their wishes, and who have sought to frustrate and derail Brexit at every single opportunity.
Who will angry, dissaffected voters blame?
Cheers,
Tony
Has anyone posted that Norway rejects the UK joining EFTA?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/n...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/n...
SpeckledJim said:
amusingduck said:
SpeckledJim said:
Any of them have a plan for the Euro?
That one's easy - it's the same answer that you can use for any of the EU's seemingly insolvable issues.There'll be a political solution.
There you go
Just say the words in your head. There'll be a political solution. Don't you feel better now? All those concerns just fading away, now that you realise that your doubts were misguided - for you didn't realise that There'll be a political solution
It's perhaps unreasonable to expect Londoners to understand the sentiment rest of the country, just as it's perhaps unreasonable to expect the rest of the country to understand London.
We all feel we understand the whole picture, but whichever camp we fall into, I fear the vast majority, including myself, really don't.
Brexit was one huge f
king shock for London, and they've not got their heads around it yet. Maybe never will.
We all feel we understand the whole picture, but whichever camp we fall into, I fear the vast majority, including myself, really don't.
Brexit was one huge f
king shock for London, and they've not got their heads around it yet. Maybe never will. amusingduck said:
SpeckledJim said:
amusingduck said:
SpeckledJim said:
Any of them have a plan for the Euro?
That one's easy - it's the same answer that you can use for any of the EU's seemingly insolvable issues.There'll be a political solution.
There you go
Just say the words in your head. There'll be a political solution. Don't you feel better now? All those concerns just fading away, now that you realise that your doubts were misguided - for you didn't realise that There'll be a political solution
toppstuff said:
JNW1 said:
But the "facts" to which you refer is actually a poll commissioned by an institution of the EU (so hardly independent!). Moreover, it suggests the UK is pro-EU when it's quite clearly not; therefore, why should anyone believe anything else that's in there?
It’s just one data point. There are plenty of others. It’s not hard to find them. Don’t be obtuse. Not sure what other data points you're referring to but are they genuine facts or just more opinion polls? If the latter history has shown they tend not to be reliable....
kayc said:
nfortunately that ambivalence and 'whatever' attitude didn't work out well historically did it?This stty little Island that you seem to believe us to be stood up then too..makes me sick the lack of pride and confidence people like you have with this country..i seriously don't understand that if its so st here you and others with your opinions don't just leave..its not compulsory to live here.
If you didn't want to be in the EU why didn't you leave?tty little Island that you seem to believe us to be stood up then too..makes me sick the lack of pride and confidence people like you have with this country..i seriously don't understand that if its so st here you and others with your opinions don't just leave..its not compulsory to live here.PurpleMoonlight said:
kayc said:
nfortunately that ambivalence and 'whatever' attitude didn't work out well historically did it?This stty little Island that you seem to believe us to be stood up then too..makes me sick the lack of pride and confidence people like you have with this country..i seriously don't understand that if its so st here you and others with your opinions don't just leave..its not compulsory to live here.
If you didn't want to be in the EU why didn't you leave?tty little Island that you seem to believe us to be stood up then too..makes me sick the lack of pride and confidence people like you have with this country..i seriously don't understand that if its so st here you and others with your opinions don't just leave..its not compulsory to live here.
My mum is adamant the EU is evil and the UK will be better off leaving with no deal etc. I asked her "If it's that bad, are you going to move back to England?"
She lives in Spain.
Oh and she's utterly screwed when my stepdad kicks it as she got way behind on pension payments and will not be self-sufficient enough to qualify to live there unless she gets a job, because Spain actually implemented some restrictions to Freedom of Movement in accordance with the EU Directive. Restrictions that notably have not been implemented in the UK.
JNW1 said:
The discussion was around the link you posted so surely it's not unreasonable to point out it contained some information which was flakey at best?
Not sure what other data points you're referring to but are they genuine facts or just more opinion polls? If the latter history has shown they tend not to be reliable....
To be fair there are legions of polls and surveys on the subject that all point to a general position that most people in the EU support the institution. Go find them. Not sure what other data points you're referring to but are they genuine facts or just more opinion polls? If the latter history has shown they tend not to be reliable....
I would myself but I’m about to leave my desk and go do some work !
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
The EU is an artificial political construct not a country.........just got up?
So?And no, I live in bed.
Russian Troll Bot said:
They tried running the anti-Brexit manifesto in the last election, it failed completely and they are more irrelevant than ever. Also have to love the irony of a party with Democrats in their name staking everything on cancelling a democratic vote.
Actually, they campaigned for a second referendum on the terms of the exit. Although I do agree that they failed. A clear anti-Brexit manifesto might have been more successful. toppstuff said:
The Dangerous Elk said:
And where did Macron come from other than a last desperate attempt to stem the rise of Anti EU/Dissatisfaction with the Status Quo ?, not going well in France is it.
Just because you live in a Pro-Eu friends/work bubble does not make you correct.
And just because you live in an anti-EU Just because you live in a Pro-Eu friends/work bubble does not make you correct.
-raging-at-the- Eurocrats bubble doesn’t make you right either.
I spend maybe 50% of my time in the countries I’ve mentioned. People don’t regard the EU as perfect - they get frustrated too - but they generally get on with their lives and being Dutch / Irish / German and enjoying their customs and identities. They don’t feel the need to express some nationalistic force. They are pragmatic and just get on with life.
Truly most of them think we are a strange bunch worrying about all the wrong things. Inside the EU they feel safe and stable. They are free to do what they want, get care when sick and educated well. The rest is up to them- they don’t need to be on some independence crusade to an unknown destination like the Brits do.
Also it sounds like you advocate sucking on the EU teat is somehow life’s true path. Your discription is indicative of little plebs being led by the collar. Sod that, I prefer the alternative route of building my own path.
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