How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
saaby93 said:
Has anyone posted that Norway rejects the UK joining EFTA?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/n...
Punishing us because it wouldn't be in their best interest https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/n...
I wonder how our free trade agreements are going.
toppstuff said:
You crossed a line there.
You don’t know me at all you worm.
You know nothing about my pride.
You know nothing about what I’ve done for this country.
You know nothing about anything. You make broad assumptions and refuse to challenge your belief systems. You have a pre conceived set of views and alter your interpretation of facts to fit them. A sure sign of limited intellect.
How dare you question my pride in this country.
Now FTFO you f
ker.
Calm down dear..im merely stating that from your posts you seem to have very little respect for this country and its ability to survive without the EU .I happen to believe this is the best country in the world and has the ability to handle any sYou don’t know me at all you worm.
You know nothing about my pride.
You know nothing about what I’ve done for this country.
You know nothing about anything. You make broad assumptions and refuse to challenge your belief systems. You have a pre conceived set of views and alter your interpretation of facts to fit them. A sure sign of limited intellect.
How dare you question my pride in this country.
Now FTFO you f
ker. t thrown at it from anyone and prosper afterwards..s1962a said:
SpeckledJim said:
It's perhaps unreasonable to expect Londoners to understand the sentiment rest of the country, just as it's perhaps unreasonable to expect the rest of the country to understand London.
We all feel we understand the whole picture, but whichever camp we fall into, I fear the vast majority, including myself, really don't.
Brexit was one huge fking shock for London, and they've not got their heads around it yet. Maybe never will.
Do those outside London understand that the square mile contributes 11% of total UK tax take? If you took the whole of London the figure would be much higher. Given that Brexit threatens UK financial services, this tax take will most likely decrease. What are we going to replace that with?We all feel we understand the whole picture, but whichever camp we fall into, I fear the vast majority, including myself, really don't.
Brexit was one huge f
king shock for London, and they've not got their heads around it yet. Maybe never will. https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-...
London thought the whole country thought like London did, and that the referendum was an easy win. But it got that completely wrong. The vast majority of the UK is very different to London, for better and for worse, and there's a gulf in understanding between the two.
That gulf lead to the arrogance and complacency of the Remain campaign, and sent us to this current position.
s1962a said:
Do those outside London understand that the square mile contributes 11% of total UK tax take? If you took the whole of London the figure would be much higher. Given that Brexit threatens UK financial services, this tax take will most likely decrease. What are we going to replace that with?
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-...
Do those inside London realise that 89% of the tax take comes from outside London along with everything they need to live? https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-...
toppstuff said:
The Dangerous Elk said:
And where did Macron come from other than a last desperate attempt to stem the rise of Anti EU/Dissatisfaction with the Status Quo ?, not going well in France is it.
Just because you live in a Pro-Eu friends/work bubble does not make you correct.
And just because you live in an anti-EU Just because you live in a Pro-Eu friends/work bubble does not make you correct.
-raging-at-the- Eurocrats bubble doesn’t make you right either.
I spend maybe 50% of my time in the countries I’ve mentioned. People don’t regard the EU as perfect - they get frustrated too - but they generally get on with their lives and being Dutch / Irish / German and enjoying their customs and identities. They don’t feel the need to express some nationalistic force. They are pragmatic and just get on with life.
Truly most of them think we are a strange bunch worrying about all the wrong things. Inside the EU they feel safe and stable. They are free to do what they want, get care when sick and educated well. The rest is up to them- they don’t need to be on some independence crusade to an unknown destination like the Brits do.
Equally anti- EU parties being a minority is barely relevant. UKIP were never even close to being a majority party here. And look where that led.
Sticking heads in the sand never ends well.
Pan Pan Pan said:
If the UK had not been the only western country in Europe to not capitulate to Nazi Germany most of the citizens of Europe would now be fully paid up members of the Nazi party, That or dead, or slaves in what once was their own country. Europe owes its freedom now, to what the UK did, and what it made possible in 1939-45. Strange how quickly some seem to forget that?
The UK spent hundreds of thousands of its citizens lives, and billions of pounds, in helping to free Europe from the Nazi`s, and now it seems they want to punish the UK for wanting to leave the political construct known as the EU. My Belgian relatives have stated a completely different view to the one you seem to think exists there, and wished their countries leaders had the nerve to get out of the construct. For too many years the UK has been buying the EU a nice Ferrari for Christmas, and getting an electric toothbrush in return. Citizens only want to do that for so long in the hope that the EU will do the right thing by the country which is its second greatest net contributor of funds, and biggest single market for `Its' goods and services, but after decades, it seems they will not, nor ever will.
Errr. No, no and, well, No. The UK spent hundreds of thousands of its citizens lives, and billions of pounds, in helping to free Europe from the Nazi`s, and now it seems they want to punish the UK for wanting to leave the political construct known as the EU. My Belgian relatives have stated a completely different view to the one you seem to think exists there, and wished their countries leaders had the nerve to get out of the construct. For too many years the UK has been buying the EU a nice Ferrari for Christmas, and getting an electric toothbrush in return. Citizens only want to do that for so long in the hope that the EU will do the right thing by the country which is its second greatest net contributor of funds, and biggest single market for `Its' goods and services, but after decades, it seems they will not, nor ever will.
The EU is genuinely sad and baffled why we are leaving. They DO respect the sacrifices made to liberate them. If you have ever been to commemorations of D day for example you would see that.
The EU was created from the ruins of Europe to help prevent it happening again. They feel puzzled that the UK does not to be a part of that peaceful pact anymore. So you are seeing it upside down.
And they aren’t actively “punishing” us. They have to protect the project and the needs of the 27. That is more important than any single state.
saaby93 said:
citizensm1th said:
saaby93 said:
Has anyone posted that Norway rejects the UK joining EFTA?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/n...
Time to tell them to stick their christmas tree, ungrateful without us they would be speaking german etc etc.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/n...
toppstuff said:
JagLover said:
But the EU does not realistically need its own army to defend against external threats. The most likely use for such a force is to suppress internal independence movements.
Truly chap , go to a cafe in Stockholm, Dublin or Amsterdam and offer that point of view and people would burst out laughing. You really should go and spend some time there. You are so far off !
Nickgnome said:
ECJ to rule on Morning morning whether to uphold the AG's advice.
The parliamentary vote on Tuesday which most consider will be lost.
Dominic Grieve's amendment comes into play.
SI drafted and implemented to extend Article 50 (Definition of Leave Date) subject to agreement with Eu.
Parliament takes control.
Or
The government forced to adopt the Fasttrack procedure to withdraw Article 50 unilaterally. (Highly unlikely)
The UK is stuck down a cul de sac with no consensus to turn around.The parliamentary vote on Tuesday which most consider will be lost.
Dominic Grieve's amendment comes into play.
SI drafted and implemented to extend Article 50 (Definition of Leave Date) subject to agreement with Eu.
Parliament takes control.
Or
The government forced to adopt the Fasttrack procedure to withdraw Article 50 unilaterally. (Highly unlikely)
Parliament does not want this deal.
Parliament does not want no deal.
Parliament does not want to extend A50.
Parliament does not want to cancel A50.
Parliament does not want a GE.
Parliament does not want a second referendum.
The EU does not want a different deal.
Where is the solution?
I'd love to meet these Europeans who think Brexit is a 'great idea'.
I play an online game and am in a clan with people from all over Europe. Eire, Croatia, Germany, Belgium, Holland, etc, etc. There is regularly about 20-30 of us online at any one time.
Now, whenever Brexit has been brought up (not that much, but we have discussed it) not one of them has said 'well done'. Equally there isn't massive hostility, more a sort of bemusement as to why we are shooting ourselves in the foot (as they see it).
Only a small sample admittedly, but you'd think out of 20-30 Europeans at least one of them would be saying 'well done' if the Brexit view in Europe is as it is presented on here.
I play an online game and am in a clan with people from all over Europe. Eire, Croatia, Germany, Belgium, Holland, etc, etc. There is regularly about 20-30 of us online at any one time.
Now, whenever Brexit has been brought up (not that much, but we have discussed it) not one of them has said 'well done'. Equally there isn't massive hostility, more a sort of bemusement as to why we are shooting ourselves in the foot (as they see it).
Only a small sample admittedly, but you'd think out of 20-30 Europeans at least one of them would be saying 'well done' if the Brexit view in Europe is as it is presented on here.
Murph7355 said:
Sticking heads in the sand never ends well.
All we have are our experiences and then empirical data. Agree that complacency is a problem. The EU isn’t going to stand still either. They will make big changes post brexit. It would be wrong to assume they will stay the same. They will reorganise and reform. We won’t be a part of that. In fact we will have to compete with the EU - and they will have more people, more skills, more capacity , better productivity and more money than us.
Nickgnome said:
ECJ to rule on Morning morning whether to uphold the AG's advice.
The parliamentary vote on Tuesday which most consider will be lost.
Dominic Grieve's amendment comes into play.
SI drafted and implemented to extend Article 50 (Definition of Leave Date) subject to agreement with Eu.
Parliament takes control.
Or
The government forced to adopt the Fasttrack procedure to withdraw Article 50 unilaterally. (Highly unlikely)
I dropped out of this as it descended into remainer vs leaver abuse. The parliamentary vote on Tuesday which most consider will be lost.
Dominic Grieve's amendment comes into play.
SI drafted and implemented to extend Article 50 (Definition of Leave Date) subject to agreement with Eu.
Parliament takes control.
Or
The government forced to adopt the Fasttrack procedure to withdraw Article 50 unilaterally. (Highly unlikely)
However, the Grieve amendment doesn't work like that. Under the amendment, Parliament can pass a motion certainly. However, this is not legally binding in any form (Grieve himself acknowledges that).
Statuatory Instruments can only be introduced by the Government as indeed can Bills. (Not strictly true backbenchers can also introduce Bills but they are reliant on the Government giving Parliamentary time to debate). SIs cannot alter primary legislation (Withdrawal Act) unless there are powers in that act permitting spefically what can be altered.
If you go back a few pages, we discussed the various options for Parliament and how the mechanics limits quite severely what can be done.
Edited by RalphyM on Friday 7th December 11:22
Edited by RalphyM on Friday 7th December 11:27
toppstuff said:
All we have are our experiences and then empirical data.
Agree that complacency is a problem. The EU isn’t going to stand still either. They will make big changes post brexit. It would be wrong to assume they will stay the same. They will reorganise and reform. We won’t be a part of that. In fact we will have to compete with the EU - and they will have more people, more skills, more capacity and more money than us.
Let me just reword that for youAgree that complacency is a problem. The EU isn’t going to stand still either. They will make big changes post brexit. It would be wrong to assume they will stay the same. They will reorganise and reform. We won’t be a part of that. In fact we will have to compete with the EU - and they will have more people, more skills, more capacity and more money than us.
The Eu will just plough on regardless with its project whist ignoring the devastation in its endless wake. The PROJECT is all important.
I wouldn't want to predict anything at this stage. Everyone is convinced there's only one way out of this situation - and it's whatever they happen to believe in. The dishonesty and misrepresentation from all factions is at an all time high.
"The electorate are better informed"?
The only thing that appears to have been achieved over the last two years is that we turned a question of 'how much' we wanted to be in the EU - and the possibility of a negotiated deal somewhere on that spectrum - into a stark binary choice between remaining and leaving with no deal.
As political gambles go, systematically destroying any sort of compromise could either turn out to be an act of genius or madness. Genius being 'something we got away with'.
"The electorate are better informed"?
The only thing that appears to have been achieved over the last two years is that we turned a question of 'how much' we wanted to be in the EU - and the possibility of a negotiated deal somewhere on that spectrum - into a stark binary choice between remaining and leaving with no deal.
As political gambles go, systematically destroying any sort of compromise could either turn out to be an act of genius or madness. Genius being 'something we got away with'.
Vanden Saab said:
s1962a said:
Do those outside London understand that the square mile contributes 11% of total UK tax take? If you took the whole of London the figure would be much higher. Given that Brexit threatens UK financial services, this tax take will most likely decrease. What are we going to replace that with?
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-...
Do those inside London realise that 89% of the tax take comes from outside London along with everything they need to live? https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-...
Every Londoner provided £3,070 more in tax revenues than they received in public spending, while people living in the south-east ran a surplus of £1,670 per head. The east of England turned a small deficit in 2014-15 into a surplus of £242 per head in 2015-16.
By contrast, spending exceeded tax revenues by £5,440 per head in Northern Ireland and by £3,820 in the North-east. Scotland, which has seen its public finances badly affected by the plunge in global oil prices, ran a deficit of £2,830 a head.
Damage to the London economy will impact the rest of the UK detrimentally.
toppstuff said:
crankedup said:
Amazing that you tell us that your bubble pals feel safe and stable in the EU. Get help when needed and get educated.Is all that thanks to the EU ?
Also it sounds like you advocate sucking on the EU teat is somehow life’s true path. Your discription is indicative of little plebs being led by the collar. Sod that, I prefer the alternative route of building my own path.
Errr. I don’t know where to be begin to answer that rant !Also it sounds like you advocate sucking on the EU teat is somehow life’s true path. Your discription is indicative of little plebs being led by the collar. Sod that, I prefer the alternative route of building my own path.
My point is that the EU provides what you may call “‘macro big picture structure “ while their own Governments look after their daily lives. It works. They don’t feel the need to blow the whole thing to pieces and run away like we do.
Instead, they concentrate on their own lives and feel the EU isn’t holding them back from doing what the heck want to do - if anything free movement increases their ability to do whatever they feel like. Ironically you could say that freedom of movement actively allows them to “ build their own path “ to do what they want wherever they want.
A good example is a Bulgarian woman I work with , living in Antwerp and with a house also in Spain where her mother often goes to enjoy the warmer weather. She went to university in Italy. I think you can call that “building your own path “.
My point is that the U.K. voted to leave the EU, the reasons have been fully explored over the past two years.
One Bulgarian lady managing to create a better life is hardly a good enough reason for me to change my outlook on life. Also it’s a big World outside of the EU, people seem to believe the EU is the World. Plenty of opportunities without the need of a political construct that seems to feed off its own power. imo.
BigMon said:
I'd love to meet these Europeans who think Brexit is a 'great idea'.
I play an online game and am in a clan with people from all over Europe. Eire, Croatia, Germany, Belgium, Holland, etc, etc. There is regularly about 20-30 of us online at any one time.
Now, whenever Brexit has been brought up (not that much, but we have discussed it) not one of them has said 'well done'. Equally there isn't massive hostility, more a sort of bemusement as to why we are shooting ourselves in the foot (as they see it).
Only a small sample admittedly, but you'd think out of 20-30 Europeans at least one of them would be saying 'well done' if the Brexit view in Europe is as it is presented on here.
What's the average age of your clan? Genuine question. I play an online game and am in a clan with people from all over Europe. Eire, Croatia, Germany, Belgium, Holland, etc, etc. There is regularly about 20-30 of us online at any one time.
Now, whenever Brexit has been brought up (not that much, but we have discussed it) not one of them has said 'well done'. Equally there isn't massive hostility, more a sort of bemusement as to why we are shooting ourselves in the foot (as they see it).
Only a small sample admittedly, but you'd think out of 20-30 Europeans at least one of them would be saying 'well done' if the Brexit view in Europe is as it is presented on here.
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