How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

[otis criblecoblis]

Helicopter123 said:

Driving home tonight, Lord Hesaltine was on LBC making a very powerful case for a People’s Vote. He was pointing out that since the 2016 vote many older predominantly Brexit voters will have died, while many young enthusiastic remain voters have reached voting age. Surely they should have a voice?

Very interesting argument from a widely respected politician.

That was a given before the refendum, everyone knew the demographics and the 2 year min article 50 process.
In searching for excuses to make people vote again when it favours the result he wants, he feels this time around Remain would win.

[philv]

andy_s said:

philv said:

andy_s said:

Helicopter123 said:

Driving home tonight, Lord Hesaltine was on LBC making a very powerful case for a People’s Vote. He was pointing out that since the 2016 vote many older predominantly Brexit voters will have died, while many young enthusiastic remain voters have reached voting age. Surely they should have a voice?

Very interesting argument from a widely respected politician.

There may be good arguments for a second bite of the cherry, but that's not one of them. He does understand how age works doesn't he? Do we say people shouldn't vote in a GE if they are over 70 as they probably won't be affected and let 13 year olds vote because they will?

So -
Tne referendum was invalid.
We voted to be in tne eu decades ago,
Tnat should obviously stand for eternity.
No matter what change in voters or circumstances.

I'm not sure what you mean? We voted to be in the EU decades ago, it didn't stand for an eternity because we got another vote on it a few years ago - not sure if you remember?. The change in the voters after 40 years was substantial and the changes in the EEC/EU have been substantial.
This isn't the case here I don't think; it appears most people want to leave and we're in that process.

Just curious as to how log has to go by or how much voter demographics have to change to make it reasonable to have another vote?

Particularly as voters are far more aware of tne key issues, benefits and dangers after 2.5 years.
It may well be the same result,but who knows.

A 2nd referendum can only give a democratic result (and a more enlightened one for sure) even though it might be a different outcome. Or not.

People are afraid of a democratic vote as it night go against an o,der democratic vote.

[kurt535]

don'tbesilly said:

kurt535 said:

don'tbesilly said:

kurt535 said:

pistonheads2018 said:

Max_Torque said:

Investigate? You realise that the majority of the population struggle to tie their own shoelaces right?

Speak for yourself. It still fails to explain how things will be different under a second referendum.

Maybe a remain vote will mean companies such as Shaeffler won't close their doors in plymouth and wales with a loss of 600+ jobs due to brexit? Ah nearly forgot, Auto Trail might not make redundancies either as people resume buying their camper vans for long holidays back in europe.

Edited by kurt535 on Monday 10th December 22:13

What about the big Pharma company in Surrey that located back in July 2016 that you posted about, you've named both Shaeffler and Auto Trail above can you now name the company you posted about back in 2016?

Post from July 10th 2016:

kurt535 said:

minor snap-shot. family pal's scientist partner works at big pharmaceutical surrey way; she (along with whole dept) has already been offered relocation to either sweden or switzerland to take place in next 6 months....yes, it was due to brexit.

What was the name of the company?

Ah, there you are. As previously discussed, they are long gone. I have no family/friend association with the other companies. Actually, Im going out there to see them in the new year. Shall I give them your regards?

So with your friends long gone why, and despite asking repeatedly won't you name the company?

What was the name of the company that your friends no longer work and the story of the big Pharma company relocating appeared in the local press?

You can't get the idea away in your head they are gone and wanted me to respect their privacy so I have and will.

[FiF]

Tuna said:

Helicopter123 said:

Lord Heseltine very well respected. I think those who dismiss his argument simply because they disagree with his hypothesis do themselves no favours.

He might be well respected, but that doesn't seem to stop him spouting nonsense which has been discussed at length on these forums, and even in this thread.

Your calls to authority would have more effect if they included new information, not just repeats of stuff you agree with.

Not to mention his allegations don't fit the facts of who voted which way. Just a reminder of something written a couple of volumes back.

"Contrary to rumour, Brexit was supported by a broad and fairly diverse coalition of voters; large numbers of affluent conservatives; one in three of Britain’s black and ethnic minority voters; almost half of 25-49 year-olds; one in two women; one in four graduates; and 40 percent of voters in the Greater London area.1 Brexit appealed to white pensioners in England’s declining seaside towns but it also won majority support in highly ethnically diverse areas like Birmingham, Luton, and Slough. You don’t hear much about these groups in the media vox pops in retirement homes and working men’s clubs in poverty-stricken communities. Had these other groups that are routinely written out of the debate not voted Leave then Britain would probably still be in the EU."

Heseltine, an inaccurate angry old man, out of touch, as is Budgie, though probably deliberate trolltasticly so.

[Crackie]

Helicopter123 said:

Driving home tonight, Lord Hesaltine was on LBC making a very powerful case for a People’s Vote. He was pointing out that since the 2016 vote many older predominantly Brexit voters will have died, while many young enthusiastic remain voters have reached voting age. Surely they should have a voice?

Very interesting argument from a widely respected politician.

[andy_s]

philv said:

andy_s said:

philv said:

andy_s said:

Helicopter123 said:

Driving home tonight, Lord Hesaltine was on LBC making a very powerful case for a People’s Vote. He was pointing out that since the 2016 vote many older predominantly Brexit voters will have died, while many young enthusiastic remain voters have reached voting age. Surely they should have a voice?

Very interesting argument from a widely respected politician.

There may be good arguments for a second bite of the cherry, but that's not one of them. He does understand how age works doesn't he? Do we say people shouldn't vote in a GE if they are over 70 as they probably won't be affected and let 13 year olds vote because they will?

So -
Tne referendum was invalid.
We voted to be in tne eu decades ago,
Tnat should obviously stand for eternity.
No matter what change in voters or circumstances.

I'm not sure what you mean? We voted to be in the EU decades ago, it didn't stand for an eternity because we got another vote on it a few years ago - not sure if you remember?. The change in the voters after 40 years was substantial and the changes in the EEC/EU have been substantial.
This isn't the case here I don't think; it appears most people want to leave and we're in that process.

Just curious as to how log has to go by or how much voter demographics have to change to make it reasonable to have another vote?

Particularly as voters are far more aware of tne key issues, benefits and dangers after 2.5 years.
It may well be the same result,but who knows.

A 2nd referendum can only give a democratic result (and a more enlightened one for sure) even though it might be a different outcome. Or not.

People are afraid of a democratic vote as it night go against an o,der democratic vote.

I've no idea on what would constitute substantial change, it's a subjective view, but it seems that as we're not even out yet then it's a little precipitous to wanting to have another bite at this juncture.

I've little truck with the argument that 'voters now know what they voted for'. The 'thick leave voter' subject has been covered over many pages, I happen to think it was true but unvoiceable until now. If people voted without thinking or reading the small print and made their decisions based on dreams and lies then more fool them.

A second referendum before leaving is patently undemocratic as the vote for leaving hasn't been executed.

And just to add to the dog in a manger picture I've drawn of myself, I voted to maintain the status quo, although I knew the day would come when we would tire of the EU eventually. I also voted to remain largely based on the competence levels of the politicians we have that would be charged to deal with the complexities of getting out while retaining both dignity and stability. How prescient.

To be frank, if anyone in that same political set had the balls and honesty to say 'you made a stupid decision and we're not competent to get anything better, are you sure?' I may give it more thought, but even in that scenario, we may end up getting stiffed by them anyway. That negotiation bill we paid isn't coming back for a start.

In any other line of work the whole lot would be sacked, May for incompetence, Corbyn for adding nothing but more division and the DUP and SNP for profiting from chaos. All of them. fking useless.And we put them there. And we still listen to them. Incredible.

[MYOB]

andy_s said:

We voted to be in the EU decades ago,

No, that wasn't what the referendum was about in the 1970s. We have never been asked to vote on joining the EU and what it represents.

[Leicester Loyal]

Helicopter123 said:

Driving home tonight, Lord Hesaltine was on LBC making a very powerful case for a People’s Vote. He was pointing out that since the 2016 vote many older predominantly Brexit voters will have died, while many young enthusiastic remain voters have reached voting age. Surely they should have a voice?

Very interesting argument from a widely respected politician.

Nice try, but that's an obvious WUM.

[andy_s]

MYOB said:

andy_s said:

We voted to be in the EU decades ago,

No, that wasn't what the referendum was about in the 1970s. We have never been asked to vote on joining the EU and what it represents.

I know. It was what the poster above stated. I was following his logic.

[don'tbesilly]

kurt535 said:

don'tbesilly said:

kurt535 said:

don'tbesilly said:

kurt535 said:

pistonheads2018 said:

Max_Torque said:

Investigate? You realise that the majority of the population struggle to tie their own shoelaces right?

Speak for yourself. It still fails to explain how things will be different under a second referendum.

Maybe a remain vote will mean companies such as Shaeffler won't close their doors in plymouth and wales with a loss of 600+ jobs due to brexit? Ah nearly forgot, Auto Trail might not make redundancies either as people resume buying their camper vans for long holidays back in europe.

Edited by kurt535 on Monday 10th December 22:13

What about the big Pharma company in Surrey that located back in July 2016 that you posted about, you've named both Shaeffler and Auto Trail above can you now name the company you posted about back in 2016?

Post from July 10th 2016:

kurt535 said:

minor snap-shot. family pal's scientist partner works at big pharmaceutical surrey way; she (along with whole dept) has already been offered relocation to either sweden or switzerland to take place in next 6 months....yes, it was due to brexit.

What was the name of the company?

Ah, there you are. As previously discussed, they are long gone. I have no family/friend association with the other companies. Actually, Im going out there to see them in the new year. Shall I give them your regards?

So with your friends long gone why, and despite asking repeatedly won't you name the company?

What was the name of the company that your friends no longer work and the story of the big Pharma company relocating appeared in the local press?

You can't get the idea away in your head they are gone and wanted me to respect their privacy so I have and will.

I'm not asking for the names of your friends just the name of the company that caused your friends relocation as a result of Brexit, and within a month of the referendum in June 2016.

Why won't you name the company?
Will anyone on PH know it must have been your nameless friends that told an anonymous poster (you) on a car forum that a big Pharma company based in Surrey was relocating due to Brexit?

[Leicester Loyal]

pistonheads2018 said:

Speak for yourself. It still fails to explain how things will be different under a second referendum.

Exactly, it'll be exactly the same again.

As someone put earlier, we've had a vote to get the ref, a vote to leave the ref and a GE in which the two main parties both pledged to carry out the result of the ref in their manifesto.

4th time lucky with the next vote? I really do hope we leave behind as much of the EU as possible, it will be a glorious day.

[B'stard Child]

Leicester Loyal said:

pistonheads2018 said:

Speak for yourself. It still fails to explain how things will be different under a second referendum.

Exactly, it'll be exactly the same again.

As someone put earlier, we've had a vote to get the ref, a vote to leave the ref and a GE in which the two main parties both pledged to carry out the result of the ref in their manifesto.

4th time lucky with the next vote? I really do hope we leave behind as much of the EU as possible, it will be a glorious day.

That has been the one thing that I think the gov have got right

Ever since the ref result they have been trying to remain as close as possible but without asking the public again

They polled at 55/45 remain before the ref

They got a bloody nose

They are possibly 55/45 for remain now - as a gov would you take another punt on a referendum solving you problem???

If it was the last possible resort (just before we "disastrously hard crash out" on "Armageddon" WTO rules maybe but not until then and even then you'd want to be more bloody sure than just what the polls were saying

[Leicester Loyal]

Max_Torque said:

I respectfully suggest that you may be missing the point of his assertion, which is really that the 2.5 years since the original vote is long enough to have changed the voter demographic. By how much is a different question. Roughly 600,000 people die each year, so 2.5 years is 1.5 million. No one is suggesting that all the dead old people voted leave, but there is clear evidence from voter surveys that many did. So, that could form a statistically significant proportion of voters, given the relatively narrow margins in the original vote.

The other point is that our system of voting makes no seperation between young and old, when descisions of this magnitude do have a very different effect on the young and old. Someone who is 65 today, retired, probably on a reasonably final salary pension, who owns their own house is likely to be affected in a very different way from someone 18 today, who was 15.5 in June 16, and who has their entire life and earning potential ahead of them.

If the system should consider those weightings is a different matter, but it certainly is sufficient to suggest young and old people do and would vote for different reasons in any vote on their future.......

You can't actually believe that we should have another referendum because some of the original voters may have died and some of the younger generation may vote differently to them?

Maybe I'm being thick, but is this actually your reasoning for a second referendum? If so, well done, that's the most hilarious reason I've heard in 2 years of all this.

Embarrassing.

[saaby93]

PH poll still stuck at 35% remain, 65% leave one way or another
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Does that mean most everyone in PH is over 70

[Crackie]

Helicopter123 said:

Lord Heseltine very well respected. I think those who dismiss his argument simply because they disagree with his hypothesis do themselves no favours.

Trollicopter123

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 11th December 00:20

[Norfolkit]

Helicopter123 said:

Driving home tonight, Lord Hesaltine was on LBC making a very powerful case for a People’s Vote. He was pointing out that since the 2016 vote many older predominantly Brexit voters will have died, while many young enthusiastic remain voters have reached voting age. Surely they should have a voice?

That will be true next year, the year after that and every year until the end of time, are you suggesting a referendum every year?

Helicopter123 said:

Driving home tonight, Lord Hesaltine was on LBC ...........
Very interesting argument from a widely respected politician.

Widely respected by whom, his own party hates him and has done for years.

[gregs656]

popeyewhite said:

gregs656 said:

I don't agree with any of that. We've come a long way in two years. There is nothing undemocratic about asking the same question twice,

Of course there is, if people had known there was going to be another referendum if the result didn't go the way certain people wanted do you think they would still have bothered to vote in the first place?

Astonishing.

You’re assuming that the only reason for another referendum is to reverse the result.

I’m not.

Nice bit of selective quoting as well.

[F1GTRUeno]

saaby93 said:

PH poll still stuck at 35% remain, 65% leave one way or another
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Does that mean most everyone in PH is over 70

Nope, but the demographic of generally angry oldish male that voted for Brexit is very much the mass makeup of the PH demographic so it's not really surprising is it?

Bunch of middle aged, whining, stbags basically.

[anonymous-user]

Max_Torque said:

Luckily, i'm (relatively) rich and (relatively) smart, run my own company, and have multiple job offers outside of the UK, so, if the S**T really hits the fan, byeee, i'm off, to a cushy 6 figure job in China.

¥100,000 ?

[JagLover]

Hands said:

She said the same last month” about stepping up No Deal preparation, Hands points out
He asked May to “tell us at least one action that is now taking place that wasn’t taking place last month

The Prime Minister reported some letters had been sent.