Discussion
Spotted this in news http://www.glasgows-motorways.org.uk/ interesting for those of us of a certain age
Terzo123 said:
Why oh why did the planners think it was a good idea to reduce the motorway at Charing cross to 2 lanes.
I can answer this one as my dad did the outline design for the 1963 design. The reason is that the Charing Cross section of the M8 was designed in the early 1960s for 1990 traffic levels. So we have had 29 years of traffic growth past the point the road was designed for. In addition it was not meant to be the only north-south motorway in Glasgow. It was part of a ring road which was only half built. The west flank and North Flank (Kingston Bridge to Townhead) were built.The south flank wasn't. It was a similar line to the M74 but part of a continuous circle not the current situation where southbound M8 traffic has to exit the Kingston Bridge onto surface roads to get to the M74. Likewise there is no direct access from the M74 west toi the Kingston Bridge.
Probably more importantly the inner ring road would have had a north south motorway completing the circle somewhere east of High Street. Had the full ring road been built the Charing Cross section would not be carrying as much traffic and could hsve coped for longer than it did.
As far as I understand things the old City of Glasgow was very pro roads and had a very good City Clerk who was efficient at their side of the process. Getting the legal stuff done, acquiring land etc. After it became Strathclyde Region in 1976 plans were changed and things became slower.
http://www.glasgows-motorways.org.uk/inner-ring-ro...
Other roads that weren't built include the Maryhill Motorway which would have taken a line between Maryhill and Possilpark out to Allander Toll. No wonder that these days Maryhill Road is at a standstill much of the day whereas Dumbarton Road where The Clydeside Expressway was built flows more freely. A not many people know that nugget is that former Lib Dem leader vince Cable was one of the people who stopped the Maryhill Motorway when he was a local councilor.
"I became a councillor for Maryhill ward on Glasgow City Council. I am very proud of my opposition to the construction of a so-called “motorway on stilts” that, if built, would have cut through Maryhill."
https://www.libdems.org.uk/interview-with-vince
http://www.glasgows-motorways.org.uk/maryhill-moto...
But on the subject of inadequate lane provision a far bigger error was the comparatively recent 2009-2011 M80 upgrade past Cumbernauld. Built as dual 2 lane despite the fact there were 4 lanes feeding in at each end (M73 M80 at the south, M80 M876 at the north) The road was peak hour traffic jams as soon as it opened. I'm told that the civil engineers wanted dual 4 or at least dual 3. Overruled by someone higher up despite the fact dual 3 would only have cost an extra 10% on a £320 million contract.
irc said:
.....
As far as I understand things the old City of Glasgow was very pro roads and had a very good City Clerk who was efficient at their side of the process. Getting the legal stuff done, acquiring land etc. After it became Strathclyde Region in 1976 plans were changed and things became slower. .....
Or: Glasgow City Council had very efficient plans to drive a motorway right through the heart of the city destroying important and historic buildings with little to no regard to the wishes of the citizens or communities impacted. Such a success was this civic vandalism that all that it managed to do was demonstrate to all other roads and city planners throughout the country that driving a motorway through the heart of a city was demonstratably stupid. Thanks to effective local opposition both from affected communities and local politicians that further plans to decimate communities were shelved.As far as I understand things the old City of Glasgow was very pro roads and had a very good City Clerk who was efficient at their side of the process. Getting the legal stuff done, acquiring land etc. After it became Strathclyde Region in 1976 plans were changed and things became slower. .....
I quote from here: https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/travel/glasgow...
"The Bruce Report envisioned a whole system of motorways in the city centre, with buildings and housing divided up into new zones. This would mean the demolition of some of Glasgow’s most famous buildings, including Central Station, Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum, Glasgow School of Art, and the Glasgow City Chambers."
Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/travel/glasgow...
before:
during:
After:
Edited by naetype on Friday 18th January 10:23
naetype said:
Or: Glasgow City Council had very efficient plans to drive a motorway right through the heart of the city destroying important and historic buildings with little to no regard to the wishes of the citizens or communities impacted
On the contrary, the motorways saved lives by diverting traffic from surface streets with high accident rates onto motorways which are the safest. They also allowed the pedestrianisation of Buchanan St, Sauchiehall St, and Argyll St by diverting previous through city centre traffic onto the motorways. This improved the quality of life for visitors to the city and residents alike. Edited by naetype on Friday 18th January 10:23
Other than a few buildings at Charing Cross the majority of the M8 was built through areas already scheduled for redevelopment or open land.
irc said:
No wonder that these days Maryhill Road is at a standstill much of the day whereas Dumbarton Road where The Clydeside Expressway was built flows more freely.
The Expressway itself flowes reasonably well but the roads before/after it less so. At peak hours the Westland Dr. junction & Dumbarton Rd. roundabout are not good (nor the Balshagray links/junction) ... Lord knows what it will be like if the planned Renfrew>Yoker bridge does get built & people divert their journeys into/out of the city that way.irc said:
On the contrary, the motorways saved lives by diverting traffic from surface streets with high accident rates onto motorways which are the safest. They also allowed the pedestrianisation of Buchanan St, Sauchiehall St, and Argyll St by diverting previous through city centre traffic onto the motorways. This improved the quality of life for visitors to the city and residents alike.
I think that you will find that generally these days it is held up as an example of how not to do things.The argument is not, and never was, about whether motorways are safer or about the benefits they may or may not bring. The argument and debate was about the need to drive a motorway through Charing Cross. The popularity and the relative success of the new M74 extension in diverting traffic away from the city centre proves it wasn't. Even GCC realised this after they destroyed the area and ceased all further work.
I could find many more but this, from the Scotsman, sums it up quite well:
"For many Glaswegians, the destruction of old Charing Cross for the M8 was an unforgivable act of urban vandalism.
Providing a link between Sauchiehall Street and Glasgow’s upmarket West End, the formerly bustling crossroads once boasted some of the finest architecture in the city. This is evidenced by the few buildings from old Charing Cross which still remain; J.J. Burnet’s exquisite Charing Cross Mansions and the Edwardian Baroque Mitchell Library towards Anderston being perfect examples. Just west of Charing Cross Mansions was the Grand Hotel, a stunning Victorian edifice which provided the base for many a Glasgow wedding reception during its lifespan.
Despite the best efforts of student activists and heritage campaigners, the Grand Hotel and hundreds of other widely-admired buildings were pulled down in the late ‘60s."
https://www.scotsman.com/news/areas-of-glasgow-los...
As a small footnote: The tenement my father grew up in on West Graham St was one of those demolished to make way for the motorway. If he had lived 3 closes up it would still be there today and I could get all nostalgic over it
I could find many more but this, from the Scotsman, sums it up quite well:
"For many Glaswegians, the destruction of old Charing Cross for the M8 was an unforgivable act of urban vandalism.
Providing a link between Sauchiehall Street and Glasgow’s upmarket West End, the formerly bustling crossroads once boasted some of the finest architecture in the city. This is evidenced by the few buildings from old Charing Cross which still remain; J.J. Burnet’s exquisite Charing Cross Mansions and the Edwardian Baroque Mitchell Library towards Anderston being perfect examples. Just west of Charing Cross Mansions was the Grand Hotel, a stunning Victorian edifice which provided the base for many a Glasgow wedding reception during its lifespan.
Despite the best efforts of student activists and heritage campaigners, the Grand Hotel and hundreds of other widely-admired buildings were pulled down in the late ‘60s."
https://www.scotsman.com/news/areas-of-glasgow-los...
As a small footnote: The tenement my father grew up in on West Graham St was one of those demolished to make way for the motorway. If he had lived 3 closes up it would still be there today and I could get all nostalgic over it
Edited by naetype on Friday 18th January 23:49
irc said:
...not the current situation where southbound M8 traffic has to exit the Kingston Bridge onto surface roads to get to the M74. Likewise there is no direct access from the M74 west toi the Kingston Bridge.
I've never quite understood why the M74 extension couldn't have been directly accessible by traffic travelling southbound over the Kingston bridge. The current carousel round the house of sher is quite silly.There is surely enough space and the motorways are very close, perhaps it was just a matter of cost.
Firstly, congratulations on the input here. How lucky can we be to have the son of the designer giving us an insight to this? Brilliant quality input all round
A lot more please.
I love Glasgow and its architecture. When I finally retire this year one of my projects is to publish a book on a Walking tour of Glasgow buildings.
I remember the old Charing Cross. We used to go to my parent’s favorite Restaurant there and otherwise drive around Glasgow a lot. I recall a lot of the old buildings now gone. A lot of flats were sub standard. There was a view in the 1960's of a bright high-rise future. Houses with their own bathroom and toilet. The old buildings typically had a common toilet and people went to the baths to actually wash. When we moved to a house with our own toilet and bathroom in 1963 we thought we were privileged. These buildings deserved not to exist. The test is what was the view nearly 60 years ago, being decisions taken by people who would now be in their 90's. One day we will be reviewed by hindsight!
I think it is difficult for people say in their 30/40's to understand the difference in traffic volumes today or 10/20 years ago compared to the 60's and 70's. Because of our family business we always had cars and vans. That was unusual. Back in 1970 about 48% of households DID not have access to a car. Since 1950 there is a SEVEN-fold increase in traffic numbers. I don’t think anyone could have predicted the increase in car ownership that occurred. When the final parts of the M8 were getting built from roughly the M73 west all the traffic went through Edinburgh road at Bailieston. Or via the East end. I used to drive into uni from 75-80 from Motherwell. The only slight jam was coming off the M73 if I went that way. Could you imagine today if the M8 was closed?
When the M8 was finished and the bridge opened it was amazing. Back then Glasgow had the best urban motorway network in Europe.
Perhaps we should assess this work more compassion for those who made the decisions they thought were best at the time for what was their foreseeable future.
A lot more please.
I love Glasgow and its architecture. When I finally retire this year one of my projects is to publish a book on a Walking tour of Glasgow buildings.
I remember the old Charing Cross. We used to go to my parent’s favorite Restaurant there and otherwise drive around Glasgow a lot. I recall a lot of the old buildings now gone. A lot of flats were sub standard. There was a view in the 1960's of a bright high-rise future. Houses with their own bathroom and toilet. The old buildings typically had a common toilet and people went to the baths to actually wash. When we moved to a house with our own toilet and bathroom in 1963 we thought we were privileged. These buildings deserved not to exist. The test is what was the view nearly 60 years ago, being decisions taken by people who would now be in their 90's. One day we will be reviewed by hindsight!
I think it is difficult for people say in their 30/40's to understand the difference in traffic volumes today or 10/20 years ago compared to the 60's and 70's. Because of our family business we always had cars and vans. That was unusual. Back in 1970 about 48% of households DID not have access to a car. Since 1950 there is a SEVEN-fold increase in traffic numbers. I don’t think anyone could have predicted the increase in car ownership that occurred. When the final parts of the M8 were getting built from roughly the M73 west all the traffic went through Edinburgh road at Bailieston. Or via the East end. I used to drive into uni from 75-80 from Motherwell. The only slight jam was coming off the M73 if I went that way. Could you imagine today if the M8 was closed?
When the M8 was finished and the bridge opened it was amazing. Back then Glasgow had the best urban motorway network in Europe.
Perhaps we should assess this work more compassion for those who made the decisions they thought were best at the time for what was their foreseeable future.
paulqv said:
I recall a lot of the old buildings now gone. A lot of flats were sub standard. There was a view in the 1960's of a bright high-rise future. Houses with their own bathroom and toilet. The old buildings typically had a common toilet and people went to the baths to actually wash. When we moved to a house with our own toilet and bathroom in 1963 we thought we were privileged. These buildings deserved not to exist. The test is what was the view nearly 60 years ago, being decisions taken by people who would now be in their 90's. One day we will be reviewed by hindsight!
Again with the benefit of hindsight, there is a view that we would have been better off refurbing those buildings (as done by Reidvale H.A. in Denistoun in the 70s). Not only would the buildings have been more attractive but they would probably still be standing unlike many of the houses/high rises that were put up in there place.Unfortunately Glasgow does not have a good reputation for looking after it's built heritage.
Thanks for the memories a great article and posts ...I am of a certain age (73) when I remember all those places/buildings /streets and it is sad in many ways a lot off it has gone .I grew up in Denniston Garfield St my wife came from Thomson St opposite the school .I move to E-K in 1956 to a shiny new house with gardens and fields to play in ,unlike a lot of the other areas people went to E-K at least had some form of community shops and a town centre all be it just one row off shops back then . It is a different place now far to big and getting bigger by the day.
In my varied career in 1967/70 I drove a Jager (cement mixer) and must have filled in most of the Kingston Bridge .BHS store Sauchiehall St .Stock exchange .and various other Glasgow landmarks ,and loads of garage bases with the spare concrete left over from jobs
Glasgow is still a great city and we should be proud of its history..note to planners do not make the same mistakes again .
In my varied career in 1967/70 I drove a Jager (cement mixer) and must have filled in most of the Kingston Bridge .BHS store Sauchiehall St .Stock exchange .and various other Glasgow landmarks ,and loads of garage bases with the spare concrete left over from jobs
Glasgow is still a great city and we should be proud of its history..note to planners do not make the same mistakes again .
A friend of mine lent me one of the 100 published books from glasgow city council of the plans for the M8made in conjunction with Scott & Wislon Kirkpatrick & Partners which was published in 1965 with all the plans and projections etc. I will try and upload some of the images of the proposed plans and layout. Suffice to say that what was built did not represent what was initailly planned.
I dont know if this was the work of the posters son on here?
I dont know if this was the work of the posters son on here?
Re the two lanes to Charing Cross, certainly travelling westbound, the jam here could be alleviated if the current planners made both the Charing and A82 exits offslips only. That is, either barrier them off at some point or even try the double solid white lines (this eems to work well on the eastbound on ramp from Charing X).
The traffic comes over from the Royal and then extends out to 4 lanes in effect so all the idiots go down both slips and then cut back in, causing the bottleneck. Make these roads offslips only and the traffic will flow so much better.
The traffic comes over from the Royal and then extends out to 4 lanes in effect so all the idiots go down both slips and then cut back in, causing the bottleneck. Make these roads offslips only and the traffic will flow so much better.
Re the two lanes to Charing Cross, certainly travelling westbound, the jam here could be alleviated if the current planners made both the Charing and A82 exits offslips only. That is, either barrier them off at some point or even try the double solid white lines (this eems to work well on the eastbound on ramp from Charing X).
The traffic comes over from the Royal and then extends out to 4 lanes in effect so all the idiots go down both slips and then cut back in, causing the bottleneck. Make these roads offslips only and the traffic will flow so much better.
The traffic comes over from the Royal and then extends out to 4 lanes in effect so all the idiots go down both slips and then cut back in, causing the bottleneck. Make these roads offslips only and the traffic will flow so much better.
As someone who mainly frequents Edinburgh’s narrow streets in the motor, who takes delight when he finally gets to the 40mph mile of dual carriageway that is the western approach road, I think it’s just brilliant you can get the M8 right through Glasgow.
I wish the Edinburgh planners had the baws to do similar back in the day with their plans for the east end of the M8 which didn’t quite make it past Newbridge.
I wish the Edinburgh planners had the baws to do similar back in the day with their plans for the east end of the M8 which didn’t quite make it past Newbridge.
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