Traffic Enforcement bending the rules?
Discussion
Hi,
Hoping someone can help me with regard to legal guidance.
Backstory, towards the start of the year I had my card details cloned. So I got a new debit card updated all my online life, including my Dart Charge account.
Thinking nothing of it (I don't even use the dartford crossing all that much), I made a few crossings, so did my wife (I fly in and out of Gatwick occasionally so she tends to drop me off from Essex).
Knowing nothing was wrong, just over a month ago, so early December, a bailiff shows up on the doorstep demanding a thousand pounds RIGHT NOW or he's taking her car. We were given no options other than pay or lose the car. So to fill the gap, basically it turns out that when I updated my card details, Dart Charge simply deleted my card and there was no payment method. Thus 2 crossings for my car and 6 for hers were logged - 4 return journeys to Gatwick during the year.
I immediately called Dart Charge as both cars are on my accoun. They wouldn't talk to me about her car so my wife had to call separately, but basically the advice was the same. Submit a couple of out of time forms to traffic enforcement and we'd hear back within 56 days. So, fast forward to this last week. I receive my PCN that never came through in the first place with a warning letter advising me it would be waived if I paid the crossing charge now. So I did £5, problem solved.
This week however, my wife received a letter saying her representation that she submitted at the same time had been rejected. I called Dart Charge and they say the notes say that TEC never even looked at it. They just rejected it out of hand. Dart Charge said to call to TEC and if not, call Traffic Tribunal and gave the numbers.
Now, it gets even more devious. The rejection letter was dated the 6th January (so sent by slow boat). However it said we had 14 days to appeal, but get tis, when my wife called them, they realed off the contents of the letter, said it had now progressed to warrant since that letter (so what happened to the 14 days? I make it that I still have till the 20th) and then hung up on her without letter her get a word in edgeways. So she called Tribunal and they said that yes, inside the 14 days they can help, but as TEC had pushed it straight to warrant, (adding a further £75 per fine since the representation we sent in and the subsequent rejection dated 6th January), it was now out of their hands and we'd have to pay £255 per fine to challenge it in court. It seems the sneaky sods have seen that we've tried to appeal it initially and immediately gone for a warrant to make sure nobody can deal with it, completely ignoring the 14 days of appeal that their own letter says we have. Now I have 11 days to stop assets being seized. Is there a damned thing I can do about this??
Hoping someone can help me with regard to legal guidance.
Backstory, towards the start of the year I had my card details cloned. So I got a new debit card updated all my online life, including my Dart Charge account.
Thinking nothing of it (I don't even use the dartford crossing all that much), I made a few crossings, so did my wife (I fly in and out of Gatwick occasionally so she tends to drop me off from Essex).
Knowing nothing was wrong, just over a month ago, so early December, a bailiff shows up on the doorstep demanding a thousand pounds RIGHT NOW or he's taking her car. We were given no options other than pay or lose the car. So to fill the gap, basically it turns out that when I updated my card details, Dart Charge simply deleted my card and there was no payment method. Thus 2 crossings for my car and 6 for hers were logged - 4 return journeys to Gatwick during the year.
I immediately called Dart Charge as both cars are on my accoun. They wouldn't talk to me about her car so my wife had to call separately, but basically the advice was the same. Submit a couple of out of time forms to traffic enforcement and we'd hear back within 56 days. So, fast forward to this last week. I receive my PCN that never came through in the first place with a warning letter advising me it would be waived if I paid the crossing charge now. So I did £5, problem solved.
This week however, my wife received a letter saying her representation that she submitted at the same time had been rejected. I called Dart Charge and they say the notes say that TEC never even looked at it. They just rejected it out of hand. Dart Charge said to call to TEC and if not, call Traffic Tribunal and gave the numbers.
Now, it gets even more devious. The rejection letter was dated the 6th January (so sent by slow boat). However it said we had 14 days to appeal, but get tis, when my wife called them, they realed off the contents of the letter, said it had now progressed to warrant since that letter (so what happened to the 14 days? I make it that I still have till the 20th) and then hung up on her without letter her get a word in edgeways. So she called Tribunal and they said that yes, inside the 14 days they can help, but as TEC had pushed it straight to warrant, (adding a further £75 per fine since the representation we sent in and the subsequent rejection dated 6th January), it was now out of their hands and we'd have to pay £255 per fine to challenge it in court. It seems the sneaky sods have seen that we've tried to appeal it initially and immediately gone for a warrant to make sure nobody can deal with it, completely ignoring the 14 days of appeal that their own letter says we have. Now I have 11 days to stop assets being seized. Is there a damned thing I can do about this??
V8C said:
Hi,
Hoping someone can help me with regard to legal guidance.
Backstory, towards the start of the year I had my card details cloned. So I got a new debit card updated all my online life, including my Dart Charge account.
Thinking nothing of it (I don't even use the dartford crossing all that much), I made a few crossings, so did my wife (I fly in and out of Gatwick occasionally so she tends to drop me off from Essex).
Knowing nothing was wrong, just over a month ago, so early December, a bailiff shows up on the doorstep demanding a thousand pounds RIGHT NOW or he's taking her car. We were given no options other than pay or lose the car. So to fill the gap, basically it turns out that when I updated my card details,
Dart Charge simply deleted my card and there was no payment method. Thus 2 crossings for my car and 6 for hers were logged - 4 return journeys to Gatwick during the year.
I immediately called Dart Charge as both cars are on my accoun. They wouldn't talk to me about her car so my wife had to call separately, but basically the advice was the same. Submit a couple of out of time forms to traffic enforcement and we'd hear back within 56 days. So, fast forward to this last week. I receive my PCN that never came through in the first place with a warning letter advising me it would be waived if I paid the crossing charge now. So I did £5, problem solved.
This week however, my wife received a letter saying her representation that she submitted at the same time had been rejected. I called Dart Charge and they say the notes say that TEC never even looked at it. They just rejected it out of hand. Dart Charge said to call to TEC and if not, call Traffic Tribunal and gave the numbers.
Now, it gets even more devious. The rejection letter was dated the 6th January (so sent by slow boat). However it said we had 14 days to appeal, but get tis, when my wife called them, they realed off the contents of the letter, said it had now progressed to warrant since that letter (so what happened to the 14 days? I make it that I still have till the 20th) and then hung up on her without letter her get a word in edgeways.
So she called Tribunal and they said that yes, inside the 14 days they can help, but as TEC had pushed it straight to warrant, (adding a further £75 per fine since the representation we sent in and the subsequent rejection dated 6th January), it was now out of their hands and we'd have to pay £255 per fine to challenge it in court. It seems the sneaky sods have seen that we've tried to appeal it initially and immediately gone for a warrant to make sure nobody can deal with it, completely ignoring the 14 days of appeal that their own letter says we have. Now I have 11 days to stop assets being seized. Is there a damned thing I can do about this??
I split up the OPS text to make it readable! Hoping someone can help me with regard to legal guidance.
Backstory, towards the start of the year I had my card details cloned. So I got a new debit card updated all my online life, including my Dart Charge account.
Thinking nothing of it (I don't even use the dartford crossing all that much), I made a few crossings, so did my wife (I fly in and out of Gatwick occasionally so she tends to drop me off from Essex).
Knowing nothing was wrong, just over a month ago, so early December, a bailiff shows up on the doorstep demanding a thousand pounds RIGHT NOW or he's taking her car. We were given no options other than pay or lose the car. So to fill the gap, basically it turns out that when I updated my card details,
Dart Charge simply deleted my card and there was no payment method. Thus 2 crossings for my car and 6 for hers were logged - 4 return journeys to Gatwick during the year.
I immediately called Dart Charge as both cars are on my accoun. They wouldn't talk to me about her car so my wife had to call separately, but basically the advice was the same. Submit a couple of out of time forms to traffic enforcement and we'd hear back within 56 days. So, fast forward to this last week. I receive my PCN that never came through in the first place with a warning letter advising me it would be waived if I paid the crossing charge now. So I did £5, problem solved.
This week however, my wife received a letter saying her representation that she submitted at the same time had been rejected. I called Dart Charge and they say the notes say that TEC never even looked at it. They just rejected it out of hand. Dart Charge said to call to TEC and if not, call Traffic Tribunal and gave the numbers.
Now, it gets even more devious. The rejection letter was dated the 6th January (so sent by slow boat). However it said we had 14 days to appeal, but get tis, when my wife called them, they realed off the contents of the letter, said it had now progressed to warrant since that letter (so what happened to the 14 days? I make it that I still have till the 20th) and then hung up on her without letter her get a word in edgeways.
So she called Tribunal and they said that yes, inside the 14 days they can help, but as TEC had pushed it straight to warrant, (adding a further £75 per fine since the representation we sent in and the subsequent rejection dated 6th January), it was now out of their hands and we'd have to pay £255 per fine to challenge it in court. It seems the sneaky sods have seen that we've tried to appeal it initially and immediately gone for a warrant to make sure nobody can deal with it, completely ignoring the 14 days of appeal that their own letter says we have. Now I have 11 days to stop assets being seized. Is there a damned thing I can do about this??
This is where I'm quite frankly buggered if I know.
No, I don't get anything from them by email, though even if I did, I get 100+ emails a day from various sources. With regard to the Bailiff, I am truly unsure as I received no PCN until the reissued one came through that I dealt with for the princely sum of £5.
Seriously though? The fact they rejected my wifes representation (both cars are on the same account), but accepted mine when the contraventions are for about the same time and the same representation was made is odd (Dart Charge agreed) and completely ignored the 14 day appeals process and have gone to straight to warrant to ensure I don't appeal it. Surely there is some route I can take?
No, I don't get anything from them by email, though even if I did, I get 100+ emails a day from various sources. With regard to the Bailiff, I am truly unsure as I received no PCN until the reissued one came through that I dealt with for the princely sum of £5.
Seriously though? The fact they rejected my wifes representation (both cars are on the same account), but accepted mine when the contraventions are for about the same time and the same representation was made is odd (Dart Charge agreed) and completely ignored the 14 day appeals process and have gone to straight to warrant to ensure I don't appeal it. Surely there is some route I can take?
tomsugden said:
Are they not governed by some kind of ombudsman?
They've gone to warrant to circumvent such recourse. Otherwise the Traffic Enforcement Tribunal people can help, they've passed it into the hands of the courts now.My main principle here is - Have they broken some kind of fundamental law or principle by stating I have 14 days to appeal (I'd imagine this is governed by some kind of statute?) and then taking this right away from me well within the 14 days to prevent any such appeal.
What happened to the “letter before action”.
DART send me all communications by e-mail, IIRC you have too give them an email address when you register.
I am more concerned that they would’nt talk to you about you wife’s car although it’s crossings were billed to your account. My wife’s car is also on my account.
DART send me all communications by e-mail, IIRC you have too give them an email address when you register.
I am more concerned that they would’nt talk to you about you wife’s car although it’s crossings were billed to your account. My wife’s car is also on my account.
IJWS15 said:
What happened to the “letter before action”.
DART send me all communications by e-mail, IIRC you have too give them an email address when you register.
I am more concerned that they would’nt talk to you about you wife’s car although it’s crossings were billed to your account. My wife’s car is also on my account.
Had sod all until a bailiff showed up. They took a grand off of me for 4x crossings, leaving two more than I'd rather not pay out for and see no reason to as they accepted my representation but rejected hers without even looking at it (Dart Charge confirmed this), but no, they would only talk to the registered keeper of the car, but only after I'd given them permission to talk to her as it was my account (messy). Since then, on the advice of Dart and the Tribunal, we've split this so her car has her own Dart Charge account. Apparently, it gets problematic when you're not the registered keeper as per the V5 of a car on your account.DART send me all communications by e-mail, IIRC you have too give them an email address when you register.
I am more concerned that they would’nt talk to you about you wife’s car although it’s crossings were billed to your account. My wife’s car is also on my account.
I'm massively pissed off that all due to a scammer cloning my debit card, even though they got away with no money, they have caused all this headache because Dart deleted all of my card details rather than updating them when I went to change it all.
donkmeister said:
Have you considered an email or tweet to the French company who own the crossing we have already paid for? That could result in sufficient levels of pain in the backside of someone at dart charge that they review your case properly.
The crossing isn't owned by a French company, so it would be rather difficult to email or tweet to the French company who owns it.jamei303 said:
The crossing isn't owned by a French company, so it would be rather difficult to email or tweet to the French company who owns it.
Although the website for paying the charge is operated by the UK Government, the day to day operations are run by French public roads operator Société des Autoroutes du Nord et de l'Est de la France (SANEF). [Wikipedia]But are we saying that them ignoring the 14 day appeals process isn't grounds for having it chucked out or reset back to day zero if I contest it in court?
jamei303 said:
None of the above, I have received a letter from TEC Northampton saying the representation has been rejected (no reason given) and I have 14 days to appeal. I'd have to get my wife to send me a copy of the actual letter for confirmation as I'm now in Seville and fighting it remotely from 1,000miles away.Drumroll said:
Just asking a question, do you not check your statements?
Are we talking about bank statements? I check them, but I don't study them I.e. I'd notice if something erroneous was on there that had taken money out of my account, but not specifically that something HADN'T taken money. I rarely carry cash and am in and out of the UK constantly so my bank statements are generally hundreds of lines of micro-transactions, commonly twinned with secondary transactions for the exchange rate commission which double up the amount of information in my app view.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff