How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 8)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 8)

Author
Discussion

toppstuff

13,239 posts

185 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
jonnyb said:
powerstroke said:
I still don't get why the EU are going to build a hard border or are the UK/Eire gov lying and they will unroll the razor wire and get out the Alsatians ??? or have I got this wrong and it's going to be like the EU IE a emperor's new clothes border ??????
Anyone ????
Because there are no countries, anywhere in the world, that have a completely open border, with no border infrastructure, unless they are in a customs union.
there is an Irish border policed and watched now , there are different tax ,vat fuel and other duties at each side and a freedom of movement agreement pre dating the EUSSR by many years , this issue is a non issue ... the EUSSR are just being s thats all... And our dim PM and the Quisling have picked up the ball and run into an own goal over it ...
Because there are no countries, anywhere in the world, that have a completely open border, with no border infrastructure, unless they are in a customs union.

I can keep repeating this point until you understand it. Your previous reply shows you do not. Read it again and again until you do. Babbling on about quislings does not change the FACT there is no no countries, anywhere in the world, that have a completely open border, with no border infrastructure, unless they are in a customs union.

You do know I assume that there will not be a CU???


jonnyb

2,231 posts

190 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
jonnyb said:
powerstroke said:
I still don't get why the EU are going to build a hard border or are the UK/Eire gov lying and they will unroll the razor wire and get out the Alsatians ??? or have I got this wrong and it's going to be like the EU IE a emperor's new clothes border ??????
Anyone ????
Because there are no countries, anywhere in the world, that have a completely open border, with no border infrastructure, unless they are in a customs union.
there is an Irish border policed and watched now , there are different tax ,vat fuel and other duties at each side and a freedom of movement agreement pre dating the EUSSR by many years , this issue is a non issue ... the EUSSR are just being s thats all... And our dim PM and the Quisling have picked up the ball and run into an own goal over it ...
I’m not sure if you’re serious?
You do know that Vidkun Quisling died in 1945?

Elysium

2,232 posts

125 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
Final episode of "Inside Europe" on tonight. BBC2 at 2100.
Fascinating programme.

I found it rather difficult to explain to my teenage son why Europe could not simply work together to accommodate the Syrian migrants. In numbers they would have been a drop in the ocean amongst 450m EU citizens.


crankedup

18,971 posts

181 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Elysium said:
Murph7355 said:
Final episode of "Inside Europe" on tonight. BBC2 at 2100.
Fascinating programme.

I found it rather difficult to explain to my teenage son why Europe could not simply work together to accommodate the Syrian migrants. In numbers they would have been a drop in the ocean amongst 450m EU citizens.
Yes for me it showed that for all its pontificating and boasting when it comes down to brass tacks they still operate as individual Countries concerned for themselves above all else.

GroundEffect

11,169 posts

94 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Piha said:
I can't see how we will "take back control" if there isn't a border in Ireland.....
Just what I was thinking hehe

Let's take back our borders, and get rid of the only land one!
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WeCumTitVillage

362 posts

4 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Anyone know why the drunken President of the EU promised Irelaid ther wouldn't be a hard border under any circumstances?

jsf

12,358 posts

174 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
WeCumTitVillage said:
Anyone know why the drunken President of the EU promised Ireland there wouldn't be a hard border under any circumstances?
https://youtu.be/G6ljJhZZo5s


Vanden Saab

1,613 posts

12 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
powerstroke said:
jonnyb said:
powerstroke said:
I still don't get why the EU are going to build a hard border or are the UK/Eire gov lying and they will unroll the razor wire and get out the Alsatians ??? or have I got this wrong and it's going to be like the EU IE a emperor's new clothes border ??????
Anyone ????
Because there are no countries, anywhere in the world, that have a completely open border, with no border infrastructure, unless they are in a customs union.
there is an Irish border policed and watched now , there are different tax ,vat fuel and other duties at each side and a freedom of movement agreement pre dating the EUSSR by many years , this issue is a non issue ... the EUSSR are just being s thats all... And our dim PM and the Quisling have picked up the ball and run into an own goal over it ...
Because there are no countries, anywhere in the world, that have a completely open border, with no border infrastructure, unless they are in a customs union.

I can keep repeating this point until you understand it. Your previous reply shows you do not. Read it again and again until you do. Babbling on about quislings does not change the FACT there is no no countries, anywhere in the world, that have a completely open border, with no border infrastructure, unless they are in a customs union.

You do know I assume that there will not be a CU???
Really? are you sure?

Murph7355

21,319 posts

194 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
GroundEffect said:
Piha said:
I can't see how we will "take back control" if there isn't a border in Ireland.....
Just what I was thinking hehe

Let's take back our borders, and get rid of the only land one!
You both, along with toppstuff, fail to understand what having "control" actually means.

It means it is up to you what you do. If that means stationing 100k troops on a border, you can. If you don't wish to, you don't have to.

Whether the EU tells the Irish what they must do remains to be seen. But all noise to date suggests they will not insist on harder infrastructure at the actual border.

If the Irish were to join Schengen then we'll have more issues than this nonsense is currently presenting. But thus far that's not happening.

Murph7355

21,319 posts

194 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
crankedup said:
Elysium said:
Murph7355 said:
Final episode of "Inside Europe" on tonight. BBC2 at 2100.
Fascinating programme.

I found it rather difficult to explain to my teenage son why Europe could not simply work together to accommodate the Syrian migrants. In numbers they would have been a drop in the ocean amongst 450m EU citizens.
Yes for me it showed that for all its pontificating and boasting when it comes down to brass tacks they still operate as individual Countries concerned for themselves above all else.
I find the image of the 3yr old on the beach soul destroying - I think all the more so because I have a 3yr old boy.

But only politicians could take the path they did. They were far more worried about photo opportunities than they were the material outcomes of their decisions. The actions they were taking were actively encouraging migration.

The series has been interesting to say the least, and shone a big light on the "safeguards" many remainers insist exist to prevent the greater excesses of the EU - they break the rules when it suits.

Tusk seems to believe he saves the day every time and is always right, Juncker somehow came across as more level headed than I expected and the power brokers in the EU are without doubt Germany and France (to a lesser extent).

That series has done nothing but reaffirm in my mind that we are better off out of the EU. If it changes its approach then maybe one day it will be worth rejoining. Until then I dearly hope our government aren't suicidal enough to ignore the referendum. The EU has significant trouble brewing if it keeps doing what it has been.

mx5nut

2,896 posts

20 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
It means it is up to you what you do. If that means stationing 100k troops on a border, you can.
Actually, we can't do that on the Irish border.

WeCumTitVillage

362 posts

4 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
jsf said:
WeCumTitVillage said:
Anyone know why the drunken President of the EU promised Ireland there wouldn't be a hard border under any circumstances?
https://youtu.be/G6ljJhZZo5s
Oh, but soon to be immigrant to Ireland, toppstuff, says otherwise.

JagLover

24,812 posts

173 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
The new Brexit party might have found a new spokesman hehe

"They – the worlds bankers – the international Monetary Fund, the European Union, are utterly united in what they want. Utterly united in deflation, suppressing the economy and creating unemployment. We need to be equally united…to show that the voice of those campaigning for peace, justice, socialism, will not be silenced by these people. We will win through. We will defeat them"


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/jeremy-corby...

JagLover

24,812 posts

173 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
Vanden Saab said:
Feel free to back up this statement with the part in the GFA that says there cannot be future customs arrangements in Ireland to compliment the existing ones. The obvious answer is as the EU have already suggested a border between Ireland and the rest of the EU.
There is nothing in the GFA to say we need to be in a customs union with the EU, so they are not going to be able find this. In fact the WA, with backstop, seems more a breach as it is treating NI differently to the rest of the UK, without the consent of the province. Hence why Trimble is trying to mount a legal case against it on these grounds.

This is why many saying we have to agree to the WA as it is because of the good Friday agreement, talk of the "spirit" of the agreement rather than about its actual text. Which has very little to say on trade.

If you go to the bottom of this document you can see measures the UK government is recommended to pursue to fulfil its actual obligations under the GFA

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cms...

Edited by JagLover on Tuesday 12th February 06:02

Robertj21a

5,233 posts

43 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
I find the image of the 3yr old on the beach soul destroying - I think all the more so because I have a 3yr old boy.

But only politicians could take the path they did. They were far more worried about photo opportunities than they were the material outcomes of their decisions. The actions they were taking were actively encouraging migration.

The series has been interesting to say the least, and shone a big light on the "safeguards" many remainers insist exist to prevent the greater excesses of the EU - they break the rules when it suits.

Tusk seems to believe he saves the day every time and is always right, Juncker somehow came across as more level headed than I expected and the power brokers in the EU are without doubt Germany and France (to a lesser extent).

That series has done nothing but reaffirm in my mind that we are better off out of the EU. If it changes its approach then maybe one day it will be worth rejoining. Until then I dearly hope our government aren't suicidal enough to ignore the referendum. The EU has significant trouble brewing if it keeps doing what it has been.
I would guess that your summary accurately reflects the views of very many people.

amusingduck

3,823 posts

74 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
jonnyb said:
The thing is that both the UK government and the Irish government are committed by international treaty to no hard boarder on the island of Ireland. How would a no deal cope with that. Or do we kiss good by to the Good Friday agreement too?
The UK won't be putting up a hard border, perhaps the question should be "Why is the EU forcing it's member to breach international treaties?" or "Why is Ireland breaching international treaties?"

jonnyb said:
You’re not reading the quote.

She’s saying the UK government will not allow a situation where NI has to rely on the Irish government or the E.U. to not put up a hard boarder.

How is she going to do that exactly?
I think the flaw in your argument is the presumption that TM's words mean anything. She has repeatedly shown the opposite.

All we can guarantee is that we won't put up a hard border, that's the only thing fully within our control. What IRE and the EU do is entirely up to them.

jonnyb

2,231 posts

190 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
amusingduck said:
jonnyb said:
The thing is that both the UK government and the Irish government are committed by international treaty to no hard boarder on the island of Ireland. How would a no deal cope with that. Or do we kiss good by to the Good Friday agreement too?
The UK won't be putting up a hard border, perhaps the question should be "Why is the EU forcing it's member to breach international treaties?" or "Why is Ireland breaching international treaties?"

jonnyb said:
You’re not reading the quote.

She’s saying the UK government will not allow a situation where NI has to rely on the Irish government or the E.U. to not put up a hard boarder.

How is she going to do that exactly?
I think the flaw in your argument is the presumption that TM's words mean anything. She has repeatedly shown the opposite.

All we can guarantee is that we won't put up a hard border, that's the only thing fully within our control. What IRE and the EU do is entirely up to them.
Well, ok, let’s say both sides are good to their word and there’s no hard border on the island of Ireland.

How would that work? How are you going to effectively police and tax goods from Ireland and the EU coming into Northern Ireland? Or the main land UK? How are the E.U. going to do it?

The only answer I can see would be a border down the Irish Sea, and a customs union on the island of Ireland.

Which crosses several of Mays and the DUPs red lines.

jonnyb

2,231 posts

190 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
Murph7355 said:
I find the image of the 3yr old on the beach soul destroying - I think all the more so because I have a 3yr old boy.

But only politicians could take the path they did. They were far more worried about photo opportunities than they were the material outcomes of their decisions. The actions they were taking were actively encouraging migration.

The series has been interesting to say the least, and shone a big light on the "safeguards" many remainers insist exist to prevent the greater excesses of the EU - they break the rules when it suits.

Tusk seems to believe he saves the day every time and is always right, Juncker somehow came across as more level headed than I expected and the power brokers in the EU are without doubt Germany and France (to a lesser extent).

That series has done nothing but reaffirm in my mind that we are better off out of the EU. If it changes its approach then maybe one day it will be worth rejoining. Until then I dearly hope our government aren't suicidal enough to ignore the referendum. The EU has significant trouble brewing if it keeps doing what it has been.
I would guess that your summary accurately reflects the views of very many people.
The E.U. can’t really win though can it?

When it tries to get member states to cooperate on issues that are Europe wide it’s accused of furthering it’s desire for a federal Europe, being undemocratic, and elitist.

When it leaves issues to member states, as in this issue, it’s accused of failing.

One wonders what the headlines of the Daily Mail would have been if the E.U. had told the UK that we would have to take 50,000 Syrian refugees.

amusingduck

3,823 posts

74 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
jonnyb said:
Well, ok, let’s say both sides are good to their word and there’s no hard border on the island of Ireland.

How would that work? How are you going to effectively police and tax goods from Ireland and the EU coming into Northern Ireland? Or the main land UK? How are the E.U. going to do it?

The only answer I can see would be a border down the Irish Sea, and a customs union on the island of Ireland.

Which crosses several of Mays and the DUPs red lines.
The first half of your post - don't we already do that? We already have diverged rules with ROI, so those things are already being policed, aren't they?

Doesn't an Irish sea border breach the GFA? I thought it stated that NI couldn't be treated differently to the rest of the UK, or something to that effect?

mx5nut

2,896 posts

20 months

Tuesday 12th February
quotequote all
jonnyb said:
The only answer I can see would be a border down the Irish Sea, and a customs union on the island of Ireland.
yes

But the Brextremists will scream and shout that it's unfair to put NI in a stronger position than the rest of the country, as they wanted to drag the whole of the UK down - not just the mainland.