Shamima Begum...

[Drawweight]

Octoposse said:

Yup - 90% she'll ultimately win on the basis that the Home Secretary acted unlawfully. Huge waste of public money.

Oh yes, and when she does return it will be front page, first question on "Question Time", Farage frothing, Facebook exploding, high profile. Hardly conducive to a calm successful reintegration.

Worse, removing her citizenship makes "us" look weak, lacking confidence in our democracy and institutions to deal with a young lady who made a terrible decision as a 15 year old.

Edited by Octoposse on Thursday 4th March 22:50

Look weak to who?

I hate to burst your bubble but the world in general couldn’t care less what happens in the U.K. much less what happens to Mz B.

If you discount the usual civil liberties groups then her plight has largely been ignored except for the reporting of the facts in a few newspapers.

She ain’t no George Floyd and people worldwide won’t be marching in the streets in her support.

[jamoor]

The Spruce Goose said:

Weak to who? Anyone arguing that because she is 15 and even now still sees nothing wrong with her actions is about deluded as they come.

The law used,
''the Secretary of State is satisfied that the person has conducted themselves in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the UK whilst being British, and
there are reasonable grounds to believe that the person is able to become a national of another country, under the law of that country,''

''55.4.4 “Conduciveness to the Public Good” means depriving in the public interest on the grounds of involvement in terrorism, espionage, serious organised crime, war crimes or unacceptable behaviours.''

Seems like the HS did the legal duty of the public.

Weak when we ask countries to take back their terrorists.

[mrporsche]

jamoor said:

Weak when we ask countries to take back their terrorists.

How often do we do that?

[jamoor]

mrporsche said:

How often do we do that?

How often are we expected to take back ours?

Both are extremely rare occurances luckily.

[chrispmartha]

sutoka said:

Saw this on twitter the other day which is fairly accurate.

Surely it works in reverse?

People who think that 16 year olds aren’t knowledgeable enough or grown up enough to vote think a 15 year old is grown up enough to know what they are doing...

[mrporsche]

jamoor said:

mrporsche said:

How often do we do that?

How often are we expected to take back ours?

Both are extremely rare occurances luckily.

So if it is extremely rare, I am struggling to recall one that was not requested and then had human rights lawyers arguing the case, not taking this one can hardly make us look weak.

[g4ry13]

chrispmartha said:

sutoka said:

Saw this on twitter the other day which is fairly accurate.

Surely it works in reverse?

People who think that 16 year olds aren’t knowledgeable enough or grown up enough to vote think a 15 year old is grown up enough to know what they are doing...

I think people generally have an idea from a young age (younger than teenage) that chopping off someone's head isn't very nice and is wrong compared to understanding the merits of capitalisim vs socialism.

[chrispmartha]

g4ry13 said:

chrispmartha said:

sutoka said:

Saw this on twitter the other day which is fairly accurate.

Surely it works in reverse?

People who think that 16 year olds aren’t knowledgeable enough or grown up enough to vote think a 15 year old is grown up enough to know what they are doing...

I think people generally have an idea from a young age (younger than teenage) that chopping off someone's head isn't very nice and is wrong compared to understanding the merits of capitalisim vs socialism.

Maybe so, just pointing out that the point raised above works both ways, and it's daft.

Who's head did she chop off?

[g4ry13]

chrispmartha said:

g4ry13 said:

chrispmartha said:

sutoka said:

Saw this on twitter the other day which is fairly accurate.

Surely it works in reverse?

People who think that 16 year olds aren’t knowledgeable enough or grown up enough to vote think a 15 year old is grown up enough to know what they are doing...

I think people generally have an idea from a young age (younger than teenage) that chopping off someone's head isn't very nice and is wrong compared to understanding the merits of capitalisim vs socialism.

Maybe so, just pointing out that the point raised above works both ways, and it's daft.

Who's head did she chop off?

She watched videos of people being shot, decapitated and tortured in all sorts of ways and supported what she saw.

Most people would be repulsed at watching the content she did, but instead she made the decision to leave the country and nearer to the action.

[chrispmartha]

g4ry13 said:

chrispmartha said:

g4ry13 said:

chrispmartha said:

sutoka said:

Saw this on twitter the other day which is fairly accurate.

Surely it works in reverse?

People who think that 16 year olds aren’t knowledgeable enough or grown up enough to vote think a 15 year old is grown up enough to know what they are doing...

I think people generally have an idea from a young age (younger than teenage) that chopping off someone's head isn't very nice and is wrong compared to understanding the merits of capitalisim vs socialism.

Maybe so, just pointing out that the point raised above works both ways, and it's daft.

Who's head did she chop off?

She watched videos of people being shot, decapitated and tortured in all sorts of ways and supported what she saw.

Most people would be repulsed at watching the content she did, but instead she made the decision to leave the country and nearer to the action.

I'm not sticking up for her by the way, just looking at the issues surrounding it.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

Oilchange said:

... have you been asleep for the last four years!

Some of it, but the ECHR stands outside the EU. AIUI we are still members of the Convention and can still be found in breech of it. Not sure what that would actually mean though.

[jamoor]

mrporsche said:

So if it is extremely rare, I am struggling to recall one that was not requested and then had human rights lawyers arguing the case, not taking this one can hardly make us look weak.

This literally makes zero sense.

[Octoposse]

Drawweight said:

Look weak to who?

To ourselves. We are a mature liberal democracy with long established institutions including a police service that was founded nearly two hundred years ago. Our society has survived world wars, the end of empire, colossal social change, a female Doctor Who, the odd pandemic, and even the cancellation of TISWAS.

To think we're threatened by a slightly dim and deluded twenty-something who ran away as a child to join a gang / seek adventure / overthrow the established world order / have lots of religiously sanctioned sex (add or delete motivations to taste) just shows a colossal lack of confidence in ourselves, our institutions, our belief set.

[Jules Sunley]

I really need to delete this thread coming up in my bookmarks - hopefully she will get blown up at some point so people don't need to waste their breath and time commenting (yes I know I'm also doing this currently) on that oxygen thief.

[anonymoususer]

Octoposse said:

Drawweight said:

Look weak to who?

To ourselves. We are a mature liberal democracy with long established institutions including a police service that was founded nearly two hundred years ago. Our society has survived world wars, the end of empire, colossal social change, a female Doctor Who, the odd pandemic, and even the cancellation of TISWAS.

To think we're threatened by a slightly dim and deluded twenty-something who ran away as a child to join a gang / seek adventure / overthrow the established world order / have lots of religiously sanctioned sex (add or delete motivations to taste) just shows a colossal lack of confidence in ourselves, our institutions, our belief set.

Or it means we dont want to risk stuff because of crap like her

[Quisling]

What would the case be if we actually acknowledged the islamic state was a real state?

Could we of said fine you are now a citizen of the IS

Don't come back

even better

Could we of shipped out to them the true garbage who were full UK citizens but hated the country

people like Owen Jones?

[Mrr T]

Quisling said:

What would the case be if we actually acknowledged the islamic state was a real state?

Could we of said fine you are now a citizen of the IS

Don't come back

even better

Could we of shipped out to them the true garbage who were full UK citizens but hated the country

people like Owen Jones?

I agree part of being British is tolerance, respect for free speech, and the rule of law. Close the door when you leave.

[Starfighter]

The Spruce Goose said:

The law used,
''the Secretary of State is satisfied that the person has conducted themselves in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the UK whilst being British, and
there are reasonable grounds to believe that the person is able to become a national of another country, under the law of that country,''

''55.4.4 “Conduciveness to the Public Good” means depriving in the public interest on the grounds of involvement in terrorism, espionage, serious organised crime, war crimes or unacceptable behaviours.''

Seems like the HS did the legal duty of the public.

Assuming that to be a correct lift from the legislation then I find it frightening that the Home Secretary has the power to remove citizenship with only “reasonable grounds to believe” that a person could get citizenship elsewhere. By the same token my son could have citizenship removed as my FIL is from Ulster so he could claim Irish citizenship.

[Mrr T]

Starfighter said:

Assuming that to be a correct lift from the legislation then I find it frightening that the Home Secretary has the power to remove citizenship with only “reasonable grounds to believe” that a person could get citizenship elsewhere. By the same token my son could have citizenship removed as my FIL is from Ulster so he could claim Irish citizenship.

Do not worry he is safe at the moment. The HS can only remove citizenship if the person has dual citizenship not the right to apply for citizenship elsewhere.

That's why this case is different because it seems possible she had Bangladesh citizenship by birth without having to apply for it.

It's still a bad principle for any UK children of Bangladesh parents who happen to annoy the government and then go on holiday.

[1602Mark]

g4ry13 said:

chrispmartha said:

g4ry13 said:

chrispmartha said:

sutoka said:

Saw this on twitter the other day which is fairly accurate.

Surely it works in reverse?

People who think that 16 year olds aren’t knowledgeable enough or grown up enough to vote think a 15 year old is grown up enough to know what they are doing...

I think people generally have an idea from a young age (younger than teenage) that chopping off someone's head isn't very nice and is wrong compared to understanding the merits of capitalisim vs socialism.

Maybe so, just pointing out that the point raised above works both ways, and it's daft.

Who's head did she chop off?

She watched videos of people being shot, decapitated and tortured in all sorts of ways and supported what she saw.

Most people would be repulsed at watching the content she did, but instead she made the decision to leave the country and nearer to the action.

Do we know what videos etc she watched prior to flying from the UK? (Genuine question)