No gas boilers in new homes after 2025.

No gas boilers in new homes after 2025.

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Discussion

b0rk

2,289 posts

145 months

Saturday 16th March 2019
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Nickgnome said:
I am hopeful that factory constructed houses should be much better. Germany and other areas of Europe have been building at a much higher standard for decades.
I wouldn’t put much faith in offsite construction being a step change in build quality vs trad. Yes there is a level of consistency achieved with factory production but if the standard is set very low in the first place shifting the work in location won’t really do much to help with quality.

The problem is that the build standard is set too low generally and for volume production sustainability is a tick box item VE’d to the lowest initial cost.


JD

2,769 posts

227 months

Saturday 16th March 2019
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People seem to be of the belief that heat pumps are something waiting to exist.

They are an extremely mature technology.

monkfish1

10,874 posts

223 months

Saturday 16th March 2019
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JD said:
People seem to be of the belief that heat pumps are something waiting to exist.

They are an extremely mature technology.
Indeed. But not overly effective in houses with the thermal efficiency of a tent.

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
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The solution is highly insulated houses, and I would say local generation of electricity for heat pumps, supplemented by open fires or stoves for decorative purposes. None of which is a crime. However I would say that politicians are the most corrupt and generally ignorant bunch of self serving bds in the world and if you believe them you will end up in trouble. He doesn’t know the best way forward but if you are picking up the tab he doesn’t really care. They engineered the diesel problem. They are engineering the push for electric cars which may be right or wrong, I’m guessing wrong, but again we pay the bills not them. As for the escalating climate change crisis, ask yourself how the Church managed to suppress science the arts and civilisation for the best part of 1000 years. I suggest to you that it was through the average individual’s credulity and willingness to wear a hair shirt. In my view the whole thing is bogus. You are expected to accept it without question or you are a Denier, or a Heretic, the terms are interchangeable.

WindyMills

290 posts

152 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
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monkfish1 said:
WindyMills said:
Building Control having greater remit and teeth, and being able to charge hourly will soon get rid of the incompetent and dishonest lot - solving a lot of problems in the industry.
Im not aware of any change taking place? Is there one?

And will the big boys exemption be removed?
I'm not aware of anything specific, although the hackitt review hinted at something like this in places.

It's been hinted at a few conferences too, although, they may have been quoting hackitt. (been a while since I've been).

I'd like to see AIs disbanded and incorpated into building control, and building control issue approval once planning, regs, cdm and asbestos, etc have been suitably discharged.

Back o/t, I've been doings SAPs for a while, and can remember bloody great 40kW+ boilers being specced frequently. Recently, I did a 300m+ house that needed a 21kW boiler, as it had lots of mineral wool, thermal store and HW solar. Seemed quite sensible.

Blue Oval84

5,276 posts

160 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
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monkfish1 said:
herewego said:
jet_noise said:
Perhaps this ought to be in the "things you always wanted to know" thread but relevant...
...if one insulates the st out of house in efforts to keep warm in winter for minimal energy how do you keep cool in summer?

My partner has a '50s south facing semi with modern improvements - cavity insulation & double glazing. While these have made a difference in winter the house overheats in summer.

And no, opening a window isn't enough smile
The heat comes through the windows so shading and ventilation.

However switching to heat pumps will be a dogs dinner if they are allowed to be run in the summer for cooling.
As above, insulation keeps the heat out in summer just as much it keeps it in in winter. Its for that very reason that solar gain becomes an issue. You are inputting heat through the windows, but it now cant escape.
I get the best of both worlds in my 70's built concrete and brick built flat. In the winter, the double glazing does a poor job of holding in the heat, and enormous areas of cold-bridging around the frames (and even on the walls around the windows) cause lots of condensation.

In the summer, despite leaving the bedroom blinds shut permanently for a few months, and opening the windows at the front and rear of the flat as soon as I get home from work, it's like a fking oven. Once the walls and concrete get up to temperature it takes ages to cool down again.

I have a portable A/C unit in the bedroom but all this does is make it barely bearable and has to be switched off as soon as I go to sleep.

I'd be extremely suspicious of moving into somewhere that allegedly has better insulation. Quite frankly if I owned the freehold to such a place I'd probably just whack a proper A/C system in and be done with it.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
quotequote all
b0rk said:
Nickgnome said:
I am hopeful that factory constructed houses should be much better. Germany and other areas of Europe have been building at a much higher standard for decades.
I wouldn’t put much faith in offsite construction being a step change in build quality vs trad. Yes there is a level of consistency achieved with factory production but if the standard is set very low in the first place shifting the work in location won’t really do much to help with quality.

The problem is that the build standard is set too low generally and for volume production sustainability is a tick box item VE’d to the lowest initial cost.
Germany also builds houses twice the size of ours.


Nickgnome

8,277 posts

88 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
quotequote all
WindyMills said:
I'm not aware of anything specific, although the hackitt review hinted at something like this in places.

It's been hinted at a few conferences too, although, they may have been quoting hackitt. (been a while since I've been).

I'd like to see AIs disbanded and incorpated into building control, and building control issue approval once planning, regs, cdm and asbestos, etc have been suitably discharged.

Back o/t, I've been doings SAPs for a while, and can remember bloody great 40kW+ boilers being specced frequently. Recently, I did a 300m+ house that needed a 21kW boiler, as it had lots of mineral wool, thermal store and HW solar. Seemed quite sensible.
Our house is a part refurb part new build first floor total about 320m2.

The boiler I specified is 30kw and it is actually oversized. I designed a low loss header arrangement to feed 4 separate circuits.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
The solution is highly insulated houses, and I would say local generation of electricity for heat pumps, supplemented by open fires or stoves for decorative purposes. None of which is a crime. However I would say that politicians are the most corrupt and generally ignorant bunch of self serving bds in the world and if you believe them you will end up in trouble. He doesn’t know the best way forward but if you are picking up the tab he doesn’t really care. They engineered the diesel problem. They are engineering the push for electric cars which may be right or wrong, I’m guessing wrong, but again we pay the bills not them. As for the escalating climate change crisis, ask yourself how the Church managed to suppress science the arts and civilisation for the best part of 1000 years. I suggest to you that it was through the average individual’s credulity and willingness to wear a hair shirt. In my view the whole thing is bogus. You are expected to accept it without question or you are a Denier, or a Heretic, the terms are interchangeable.
Another person to add to my "I'm glad i'm not them" list.....

Cheer up mate, eh! Perhaps get out the house for a bit and go have a laugh with some of your mates (assuming they will still talk to Eeyore... ;-)




Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
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Nickgnome said:
Sheepshanks said:
herewego said:
This is going to have to be extended to the rest of the housing stock though and he's shying away from this elephant which he must know should have been addressed decades ago.
I do wonder about that - our crap built mid-60's house is full of cold bridges and other fundamental problems. I can't see much being done with it, short of flattening it and rebuilding.
It is possible to insulate the externally then clad or render. Not a cheap solution though but still generally less than a rebuild.

It would help if the tax regime was changed to be beneficial to those who upgrade the thermal performance of their property.
There have been attempts to do this regularly over the last few decades. They always fail because:

  • There are no 'repeatable' options - our housing stock is so varied that the moment you come up with a solution for one build type, you're faced with houses that it just doesn't work for.
  • The cost of refurb is a huge multiple of the annual savings. This is made worse for the 'worst case' housing stock because the occupants usually change their behaviour when efficient heating becomes available, negating a huge chunk of the cost savings.
  • Aesthetically, the alterations do not look good
  • Any serious improvement in thermal efficiency is massively disruptive.

herewego

8,814 posts

212 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
quotequote all
Tuna said:
Nickgnome said:
Sheepshanks said:
herewego said:
This is going to have to be extended to the rest of the housing stock though and he's shying away from this elephant which he must know should have been addressed decades ago.
I do wonder about that - our crap built mid-60's house is full of cold bridges and other fundamental problems. I can't see much being done with it, short of flattening it and rebuilding.
It is possible to insulate the externally then clad or render. Not a cheap solution though but still generally less than a rebuild.

It would help if the tax regime was changed to be beneficial to those who upgrade the thermal performance of their property.
There have been attempts to do this regularly over the last few decades. They always fail because:

  • There are no 'repeatable' options - our housing stock is so varied that the moment you come up with a solution for one build type, you're faced with houses that it just doesn't work for.
  • The cost of refurb is a huge multiple of the annual savings. This is made worse for the 'worst case' housing stock because the occupants usually change their behaviour when efficient heating becomes available, negating a huge chunk of the cost savings.
  • Aesthetically, the alterations do not look good
  • Any serious improvement in thermal efficiency is massively disruptive.
Even Hammond's small scale new houses only scheme is apparently only out for consultation so even that will probably be junked like Osborne's zero carbon houses. Persimmon only made a billion last year so they won't be able to afford any more insulation and while the law doesn't require better that's the way we roll.

aeropilot

34,288 posts

226 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
However I would say that politicians are the most corrupt and generally ignorant bunch of self serving bds in the world and if you believe them you will end up in trouble. He doesn’t know the best way forward but if you are picking up the tab he doesn’t really care. They engineered the diesel problem. They are engineering the push for electric cars which may be right or wrong, I’m guessing wrong, but again we pay the bills not them. As for the escalating climate change crisis, ask yourself how the Church managed to suppress science the arts and civilisation for the best part of 1000 years. I suggest to you that it was through the average individual’s credulity and willingness to wear a hair shirt. In my view the whole thing is bogus. You are expected to accept it without question or you are a Denier, or a Heretic, the terms are interchangeable.
Spot on.


Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
quotequote all
herewego said:
Even Hammond's small scale new houses only scheme is apparently only out for consultation so even that will probably be junked like Osborne's zero carbon houses. Persimmon only made a billion last year so they won't be able to afford any more insulation and while the law doesn't require better that's the way we roll.
Our whole building system doesn't value quality housing - if you look at our planning system and the government lead it follows, we consistently build down to a standard, to the minimum size, to the cheapest cost. You could argue whether the public are responsible for that approach, or just go with it, but the end effect is that very, very few people actually put much effort into considering how their house was built. It all comes down to number of rooms (no matter how small) and shiny appliances in the kitchen.

aeropilot

34,288 posts

226 months

Sunday 17th March 2019
quotequote all
Tuna said:
herewego said:
Even Hammond's small scale new houses only scheme is apparently only out for consultation so even that will probably be junked like Osborne's zero carbon houses. Persimmon only made a billion last year so they won't be able to afford any more insulation and while the law doesn't require better that's the way we roll.
Our whole building system doesn't value quality housing - if you look at our planning system and the government lead it follows, we consistently build down to a standard, to the minimum size, to the cheapest cost. You could argue whether the public are responsible for that approach, or just go with it, but the end effect is that very, very few people actually put much effort into considering how their house was built. It all comes down to number of rooms (no matter how small) and shiny appliances in the kitchen.
Yep, its all about how quickly it can be built, and then sold, not how well it can be built.

And that's never going to change in the UK with the way the construction industry operates.

BlackLabel

Original Poster:

13,251 posts

122 months

Thursday 19th November 2020
quotequote all
The ban is being brought forward to 2023.

“ Gas boilers will be banned in all newly built homes within three years under the government’s plan to tackle climate change.

The move, two years earlier than previously planned, was initially included in a ten-point initiative announced yesterday to help Britain reach its target of net zero emissions by 2050. The “future homes standard” will require all new homes to have low-carbon alternatives, such as electric heat pumps.

Although the reference to the 2023 deadline was removed from the official document within an hour of The Times approaching the government for clarification, and its inclusion explained as a “technical error”, a government source later confirmed that the ban was being brought forward.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/gas-boiler...

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/18/uk-g...


Biggy Stardust

6,796 posts

43 months

Thursday 19th November 2020
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Future shortages of everything except rules and regulations.

mjb1

2,552 posts

158 months

Thursday 19th November 2020
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Utterly bonkers. The electricity companies are quids in here, my guess is that they've got to the government somehow. Backhanders from the electricity companies.

I'm an engineer, and a bit meticulous about my domestic energy usage. Apart from fuel consumption in my cars, this is PH and that's different! Forget smart meters, I've recorded my gas and electric usage in detailed spreadsheets for years (not as arduous as it sounds).

Looking at my current dual fuel tariff - gas 2.4p/kWh, electricity 13p/kWh. That's going to be a hell of a difference to the average household's energy bills. I run my house pretty cool, and it's relatively small, and I live in the mildest part of the UK. Over the last year my boiler burned 5475kWh of gas - that's going to be about £500 a year more expensive, and that's assuming my gas boiler is only 80% efficient (modern ones are > 90%). I could easily expect an average family home, with the thermostat at set warmer, to be £1000 a year more expensive.

There's absolutely no need for this at all - as I said, modern gas boilers are up to 95% efficient, so it's barely a waste. The only difference is that we'll be burning the gas centrally (in power stations), and then transmitting it throught the power grid (probably less than 95% efficient by the time it reaches your home).

Furthermore, there's no way the national power grid can cope with this (not to mention electric car charging demands). It can barely cope as things are, it'll require huge infrastructure upgrades to stand a chance. Doubt they can build it quick enough - In the medium term we're likely to end up with intermittent power outages, like some kind of 3rd world country.

My household currently uses about 10kWh of electricity daily (as it has done for about the last 5 years). In the coldest parts of winter my gas boiler consumes 45kWh in day. So in my case, that's my winter electricity demands up 450%. And I'm an economic, low user, so that's about best case. You can add in another 10kWh per day, on average, for electric car charging, so we're probably looking at at least 600% increase in electrcity demand.

There's no way the greenies will let us build power stations and distribution capacity to support that. I know Boris was bashing on about building offshore wind farms with enough capacity to supply every house in the country. But that's just fantasy. Even before this massive increase in demand it'd be a huge challenge. Nuclear power is our only hope here, and LOTS of it. You've only got to look at teh Hinkley Point C debacle (over 15 years from consultation to completion, if it stays to current plan, and built and owned by foreign governments/investors too).

The people behind these policies are just utter dimwits. If they really gave a toss about green issues, they'd have made it compulsory for all new homes to have had an appropriate amount of solar panels built into their rooves. That technology has been stable and mature for what, at least 10 years now? They could have brought that into law years ago. It probably would only add a relatively small cost to the build costs of a new home as well. It'd be far cheaper than retrofitting panels to existing houses like we have been doing, and the massive increase in demand and sales volumes would drive the wholesale costs down much lower, and in turn made retrofitting more cost effective for existing homes. I'd have totally supported that



Gary C

12,312 posts

178 months

Thursday 19th November 2020
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mjb1 said:
Utterly bonkers. The electricity companies are quids in here, my guess is that they've got to the government somehow. Backhanders from the electricity companies.
Except that the generation business (unless your in older wind with the large CFD's) is struggling with very low prices.

The electricity market has been distorted to support green development (you can argue that either way) but to say 'electricity companies are quids in' doesn't describe what I see day in day out.

Yugo513

3,766 posts

63 months

Thursday 19th November 2020
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
cardigankid said:
However I would say that politicians are the most corrupt and generally ignorant bunch of self serving bds in the world and if you believe them you will end up in trouble. He doesn’t know the best way forward but if you are picking up the tab he doesn’t really care. They engineered the diesel problem. They are engineering the push for electric cars which may be right or wrong, I’m guessing wrong, but again we pay the bills not them. As for the escalating climate change crisis, ask yourself how the Church managed to suppress science the arts and civilisation for the best part of 1000 years. I suggest to you that it was through the average individual’s credulity and willingness to wear a hair shirt. In my view the whole thing is bogus. You are expected to accept it without question or you are a Denier, or a Heretic, the terms are interchangeable.
Spot on.
My local Council struggles to collect litter in the street, let's see them fit new heating systems in each home or allow for pavements and gardens to be dug up by contractors to do so. I guess they can fit the solar panels and fit the infrastructure for my new electric car whilst they're at it. The whole this is bogus, like "The Science" (a guy from GlaxoSmithKline with a vested interest in shilling a vaccine to us at cost) who tells us when it's safe to go outside. It's left a bitter taste in my mouth, like his Lemsip frown

rodericb

6,656 posts

125 months

Thursday 19th November 2020
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Max_Torque said:
DOH! where's the face palm .gif when you need it!

Of course Heat pumps work! Have you got a car? see that little button that looks like a snow flake on the dash? Have you ever pushed it? I've driven cars in Death Valley at 52 degC (yes 52!!) and inside the Arctic Circle at minus 38 degC, and the HVAC worked on both those occasions! Now of course, you car, which uses an Air Source system has the advantage that it moves at speed through the heat exchange medium, unlike your house, but luckily that's easily fixed with some fans!

Commercial A/C systems work, and work well: ie:



The only issue is that the majority of our existing domestic houses are not (yet) designed to easily integrate such a unit, but there is no reason they couldn't do so (plenty of room in your loft for example)

And the other thing you miss is that there is actually a very large "free lunch" when it comes to heating and cooling things, which is that to do so we only need to MOVE heat energy and not to actually convert heat from some other form, meaning systems like phase change A/C systems can have a Coefficient of Performance (CoP) greater than 1 ie they can MOVE more energy than they consume (think of it as like a wheel barrow, that allows a human to move an object heavier than they can actually lift)

A gas boiler works by burning a fuel, creating heat energy, that is then released into your house at the same rate (for any given room temp) as it escapes to the outside

A heat pump simply acts to push that energy back in again at the same rate it escapes, it is not "creating" any additional heat energy, and hence can be up to 4 times more efficient (energy consumed vs energy moved) ie have a CoP up to 4




(as to Solar panels being a scam, well, let just say watch out for that meteorite eh..... /dinosaur..... ;-) )

edgy. Anyway, do you use reverse cycle air conditioners much there in the UK to heat buildings? They require careful placement and other measures to prevent them from freezing up.