Mass shooting in NZ mosque

Author
Discussion

j_4m

1,574 posts

63 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Brooking10 said:
This raises a whole host of questions

What’s the NZ equivalent of concealed permit
?

Do you think many places of worship would allow guns to be carried on the premises ?

Are there are examples which show armed citizens’ interventions bringing mass shootings to a conclusion ?
A couple in the US, few and far between though. From the top of my head the Sutherland Springs church, a recent school shooter was spooked by a security guard with a handgun, the Fort Hood shooting (although perhaps not fair to count this one as it was technically a military base...). So called 'rampage killers' tend to choose soft targets like schools and churches, I highly doubt gun ranges are high on their lists.

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
j_4m said:
A couple in the US, few and far between though. From the top of my head the Sutherland Springs church, a recent school shooter was spooked by a security guard with a handgun, the Fort Hood shooting (although perhaps not fair to count this one as it was technically a military base...). So called 'rampage killers' tend to choose soft targets like schools and churches, I highly doubt gun ranges are high on their lists.
Given the number of people who carry guns in the US, if Brad's logic was correct, you would think that mass shootings would be few and far between..... scratchchin

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Arming people to combat this type of thing is moronic. All studies have shown that an increased gun ownership population leads to more violent crimes.

''Donohue (Stanford professor) told ABC News that the research “concluded that allowing citizens to carry handguns seems to increase violent crime 13 to 15 percent by the 10th year” of the laws being enacted in the state''


Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Brads67 said:
What do you mean ? Pretty simple to me. Armed people shoot bad people before bad people shoot more unarmed people.

Surely if one person had been armed and had shot him early then gunlaws would be lauded not derided.
You may well be right. In isolation.

But widespread gun ownership - do you think that would lead to other deaths or not? It’s all very well taking one incident in isolation, but there are wider ramifications which you need to think through.

j_4m

1,574 posts

63 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Given the number of people who carry guns in the US, if Brad's logic was correct, you would think that mass shootings would be few and far between..... scratchchin
Most mass shootings of this type happen in no-gun zones... Even in Fort Hood military personnel aren't allowed to carry their own guns. It's not as simple as "guns r bad!" or "guns would stop this!".

Thesprucegoose said:
Arming people to combat this type of thing is moronic. All studies have shown that an increased gun ownership population leads to more violent crimes.

''Donohue (Stanford professor) told ABC News that the research “concluded that allowing citizens to carry handguns seems to increase violent crime 13 to 15 percent by the 10th year” of the laws being enacted in the state''
These would be the studies that cherry pick urban areas with high crime and don't differentiate between legal and illegal gun owners.




EDIT: The US is a terrible model for anything, most of all crime and violence. Specific to NZ it's hard to say whether or not having CC or OC laws would have stopped this guy. He was eventually scared off with his own shotgun, so there's that, but would people really carry their weapons to mosque (insert religion of choice as applicable), or to a school? Maybe, maybe not. The guns aren't the root problem, just as the guns aren't a proper solution.

Edited by j_4m on Monday 25th March 12:58

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
George Zimmerman, is a prime example.

There is no cherry picking on the studies, another study reported in American scientific said.

''In a 2015 study using data from the FBI and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, for example, researchers at Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard University reported that firearm assaults were 6.8 times more common in the states with the most guns versus those with the least. "

Nearly 7 times more than less gun ownership states, you really can't argue with facts like this.

As well as

"Also in 2015 a combined analysis of 15 different studies found that people who had access to firearms at home were nearly twice as likely to be murdered as people who did not."

So again having a gun dies little to make you more safer. It keeps going on and on.

You also have the fact people that have guns are not even trained to deal with situations like this and are more likely to have little impact on stopping the threat.

red_slr

17,122 posts

188 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Chicken and egg situation though. Live in a bad neighbourhood so buy a gun.

Personally I think the main issue in the states is the felons with firearms, which is something that never seems to get mentioned.

j_4m

1,574 posts

63 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Correlation does not equal causation. Without knowing the rest of the details (geography, socio-economic status...) you can't just assert that legally owning a firearm makes you more likely to be killed. It's easy to draw the reverse conclusion; firearms ownership increases in those areas as people respond to the threat of rising violent crime.

Plenty of countries out there that aren't the US where people own firearms and don't kill each other. New Zealand is actually one of them with a remarkably low murder rate.


red_slr said:
Personally I think the main issue in the states is the felons with firearms, which is something that never seems to get mentioned.
Bingo. You can't legally even own a firearm if you're a felon, yet trawl through the stats and time and again the same trend appears; the majority of non-suicide gun crime in the US is perpetrated by felons.

Edited by j_4m on Monday 25th March 13:30

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
red_slr said:
Chicken and egg situation though. Live in a bad neighbourhood so buy a gun.

Personally I think the main issue in the states is the felons with firearms, which is something that never seems to get mentioned.
Really ?

Aren’t people who shoot other people felons ?


jimmyjimjim

7,329 posts

237 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Despite it being a troll comment, you can legally own a gun and shoot someone, and not commit a felony, nor become a felon. Castle doctrine.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
jimmyjimjim said:
Despite it being a troll comment, you can legally own a gun and shoot someone, and not commit a felony, nor become a felon. Castle doctrine.
Depends on the country...

jimmyjimjim

7,329 posts

237 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
rscott said:
jimmyjimjim said:
Despite it being a troll comment, you can legally own a gun and shoot someone, and not commit a felony, nor become a felon. Castle doctrine.
Depends on the country...
red_slr said:
Personally I think the main issue in the states is the felons with firearms, which is something that never seems to get mentioned.
Indeed.

Brads67

3,199 posts

97 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
desolate said:
Brads67 said:
What do you mean ? Pretty simple to me. Armed people shoot bad people before bad people shoot more unarmed people.

Surely if one person had been armed and had shot him early then gunlaws would be lauded not derided.
Yes, it's pretty simple. Well done - QED so have a biscuit.
Yawn.

TTwiggy

11,500 posts

203 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Brads67 said:
desolate said:
Brads67 said:
What do you mean ? Pretty simple to me. Armed people shoot bad people before bad people shoot more unarmed people.

Surely if one person had been armed and had shot him early then gunlaws would be lauded not derided.
Yes, it's pretty simple. Well done - QED so have a biscuit.
Yawn.
Just for sts & giggles, when everyone is shooting at everyone else, how are the 'good' guys supposed to pick out the 'bad' guys?

Brads67

3,199 posts

97 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
TTwiggy said:
Brads67 said:
desolate said:
Brads67 said:
What do you mean ? Pretty simple to me. Armed people shoot bad people before bad people shoot more unarmed people.

Surely if one person had been armed and had shot him early then gunlaws would be lauded not derided.
Yes, it's pretty simple. Well done - QED so have a biscuit.
Yawn.
Just for sts & giggles, when everyone is shooting at everyone else, how are the 'good' guys supposed to pick out the 'bad' guys?
Yeh cause mass gunfights breakout all the time. Oh no, wait ! ,, they don't.

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Brads67 said:
Yeh cause mass gunfights breakout all the time. Oh no, wait ! ,, they don't.
Do you think there would be more or less killings if guns were made available to all?

TTwiggy

11,500 posts

203 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Brads67 said:
Yeh cause mass gunfights breakout all the time. Oh no, wait ! ,, they don't.
The logical fail here is that if you have everyone armed, you create a mass gunfight. One 'bad' guy walks into a shopping mall and starts shooting. One 'good' guy sees him and returns fire. A bunch of other 'good' guys hear gunfire and come running, weapons at the ready. How do they know who to shoot at? This would be hard enough in normal circumstances, throw in one of the highest-stress environments that any untrained person is likely to experience and it's a recipe for disaster. Trained soldiers shoot at their own comrades sometimes, and they're all wearing a uniform!

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
j_4m said:
the majority of non-suicide gun crime in the US is perpetrated by felons.

Edited by j_4m on Monday 25th March 13:30
Where's your citation as there is no countrywide study in last 10 years that highlights felons.

All studies state gun ownership leads to higher risk of violent crime.

How about this, Number of mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and November 2018, by legality of shooter's weapons, 75% of all mass shootings used legally obtaining guns....
.



j_4m

1,574 posts

63 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Thesprucegoose said:
Where's your citation as there is no countrywide study in last 10 years that highlights felons.

All studies state gun ownership leads to higher risk of violent crime.

How about this, Number of mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and November 2018, by legality of shooter's weapons, 75% of all mass shootings used legally obtaining guns....
.
http://www.socialmedicine.info/index.php/socialmedicine/article/view/852/1649

In 2008 a study in Pittsburgh found that 79% of firearms involved in crime were illegally held.

https://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cit...

A similar study in 2009, Milwaukee, found that over half of all the victims had previous with the police.


I don't deny that mass shootings are carried about by legally held firearms, most are. Rampage shootings (and not mass shootings, which the US defines as four or more victims and includes lots of gang violence) account for a tiny fraction of murder in the US.


andy_s

19,397 posts

258 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Jay-zuz, talk about fairies on a pinhead. The culture is the problem, a Hollywoodesque, pathological, phantasmagorical delusion embedded deep within societal psyche like a fking tick and supported by a 300 year old document supported only because it supports what people viscerally want because of unexamined beliefs and paranoiac delusion which leads inevitably to an arms race between weirdos, criminals, ordinary people and state. It's a sick culture.

Gun control? Too late, you can't put the st back in the donkey. What to do? Nothing you can do except arm up and hopefully add to the death toll before you're added to it.