How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 9)
Discussion
Helicopter123 said:
Something about fish.
Leavers increasingly angry.
A 1m pro 2nd ref march in London and 5m sign revoke A50 petition.
Something about fishLeavers increasingly angry.
A 1m pro 2nd ref march in London and 5m sign revoke A50 petition.
Remainers increasingly bitter but still very very angry.
A few hundred thousand ( no proof of a million yet ) turned up in London for pro 2nd ref vote, funny though, I thought it was a poeple vote, guess the mask slipped.
Oh, and we found out that 5m remainers have a valid email address but the other 11 million are either too angry to type or have switched to leave.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 25th March 09:50
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 25th March 09:56
Andy20vt said:
Vanden Saab said:
Well done, you have proved my point for me. If we leave without an agreement we immediately start to trade under WTO rules. That is not the end point but the start. It is not our problem that the EU will not even start to discuss future arrangements until we have left. If the WA and Transition agreement was anything but an attempt to keep us in I would be supporting it.
Extremist remainers ….. do you really need reminding?
Do you have any experience of trying to trade under WTO rules?Extremist remainers ….. do you really need reminding?
So, any export/import business that trades outside the E.U. is very likely to have experience of WTO rules
Vanden Saab said:
Well done, you have proved my point for me. If we leave without an agreement we immediately start to trade under WTO rules. That is not the end point but the start. It is not our problem that the EU will not even start to discuss future arrangements until we have left. If the WA and Transition agreement was anything but an attempt to keep us in I would be supporting it.
Extremist remainers ….. do you really need reminding?
Extremist Leavers, proud to be associated with this sort of thing:Extremist remainers ….. do you really need reminding?
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 25th March 08:11
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/br...
NorfolkInClue1 said:
Helicopter123 said:
Something about fish.
Leavers increasingly angry.
A 1m pro 2nd ref march in London and 5m sign revoke A50 petition.
Something about fishLeavers increasingly angry.
A 1m pro 2nd ref march in London and 5m sign revoke A50 petition.
Remainers increasingly bitter but still very very angry.
A few hundred thousand ( no proof of a million yet ) turned up in London for pro 2nd ref vote, funny though, I thought it was a poeple vote, guess the mask slipped.
Oh, and we found out that 5m remainers have a valid email address but the other 11 million are either too angry to type or have switched to remain.
Met estimate :200k
LFB estimate :450k
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: "Contemptuous attitude" 
What is sad is that anyone would base their vote off anything they read in that rag.
Plenty of crap opinion pieces in the Guardian and Indy too but the quality of journalism v opinion is head and shoulders above the Express.
It's fear monger central and preys on peoples insecurities.
If the distinctions you cite are the quality of the writing and the level of fear mongering, I don't think you can have read either very recently. What is sad is that anyone would base their vote off anything they read in that rag.
Plenty of crap opinion pieces in the Guardian and Indy too but the quality of journalism v opinion is head and shoulders above the Express.
It's fear monger central and preys on peoples insecurities.
Both are just a woke version of the Express for Waitrose shoppers.
psi310398 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: "Contemptuous attitude"
What is sad is that anyone would base their vote off anything they read in that rag.
Plenty of crap opinion pieces in the Guardian and Indy too but the quality of journalism v opinion is head and shoulders above the Express.
It's fear monger central and preys on peoples insecurities.
If the distinctions you cite are the quality of the writing and the level of fear mongering, I don't think you can have read either very recently. What is sad is that anyone would base their vote off anything they read in that rag.
Plenty of crap opinion pieces in the Guardian and Indy too but the quality of journalism v opinion is head and shoulders above the Express.
It's fear monger central and preys on peoples insecurities.
Both are just a woke version of the Express for Waitrose shoppers.
That or I can collect a weeks worth of tokens and get commemorative Brexit plate.
The Guardian isn't that much better with their opinion pieces and I get it they play into a different sort of insecurity, but I think you'd have to be a little blinkered to think the Express offers any kind of quality reporting.
Just my opinion.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: ...
The Guardian isn't that much better with their opinion pieces and I get it they play into a different sort of insecurity, but I think you'd have to be a little blinkered to think the Express offers any kind of quality reporting.
Just my opinion.
I would never argue that. The Guardian isn't that much better with their opinion pieces and I get it they play into a different sort of insecurity, but I think you'd have to be a little blinkered to think the Express offers any kind of quality reporting.
Just my opinion.
It would be patent trolling
!I’ve traded with Indonesia, which hardly has any rules. WTO would be a bonus...
Punitive import taxes
Widespread smuggling
Almost no double taxation treaties (as other governments have little faith in the Indonesian tax office/ regime)
If you go to court, you lose (as a foreign company)
Not surprisingly, unless you are a large MNC with local manufacturing, most give up and appoint a local agency/ franchise to deal with all the hassles. Chinese brands have done very well, due to low prices and a willingness to still bend the rules.
Rolls Royce/ Siemens/ ADM - on the list of Western firms that have fallen foul of anti bribery laws ‘at home’ for shenanigans in Indonesia
(and luxury brands take the Apple approach- have an expensive store in Jakarta, but accept that it is for advertising purposes, people will then buy grey market goods, or when they are abroad in Singapore/ HK etc)
Punitive import taxes
Widespread smuggling
Almost no double taxation treaties (as other governments have little faith in the Indonesian tax office/ regime)
If you go to court, you lose (as a foreign company)
Not surprisingly, unless you are a large MNC with local manufacturing, most give up and appoint a local agency/ franchise to deal with all the hassles. Chinese brands have done very well, due to low prices and a willingness to still bend the rules.
Rolls Royce/ Siemens/ ADM - on the list of Western firms that have fallen foul of anti bribery laws ‘at home’ for shenanigans in Indonesia
(and luxury brands take the Apple approach- have an expensive store in Jakarta, but accept that it is for advertising purposes, people will then buy grey market goods, or when they are abroad in Singapore/ HK etc)
Edited by wisbech on Monday 25th March 08:56
Zigster said:
Earthdweller said:
My sources tell me
Met estimate :200k
LFB estimate :450k
“My sources” ... Met estimate :200k
LFB estimate :450k
That’s really convincing. Either they are credible sources and you can name them, or they aren’t credible.
And why do the Brexiteers comment on this anyway? On one hand they claim they don't care about the march, it means nothing apparently. On the other hand they try to belittle it because they see it as a threat.
So which one is it? Do you care or not care, because if you don't care as you claim the march seems to have done a bl*ody good job of winding you right up?
wisbech said:
I’ve traded with Indonesia, which hardly has any rules. WTO would be a bonus...
Punitive import taxes
Widespread smuggling
Almost no double taxation treaties (as other governments have little faith in the Indonesian tax office/ regime)
If you go to court, you lose (as a foreign company)
Not surprisingly, unless you are a large MNC with local manufacturing, most give up and appoint a local agency/ franchise to deal with all the hassles. Chinese brands have done very well, due to low prices and a willingness to still bend the rules.
Rolls Royce/ Siemens/ ADM - on the list of Western firms that have fallen foul of anti bribery laws ‘at home’ for shenanigans in Indonesia
Yes that is my experience. WTO massively favours the big guys, the corporates and the multinationals. It will be to the detriment of start-ups, smaller businesses and entrepreneurs to which the WTO offers almost no protection.Punitive import taxes
Widespread smuggling
Almost no double taxation treaties (as other governments have little faith in the Indonesian tax office/ regime)
If you go to court, you lose (as a foreign company)
Not surprisingly, unless you are a large MNC with local manufacturing, most give up and appoint a local agency/ franchise to deal with all the hassles. Chinese brands have done very well, due to low prices and a willingness to still bend the rules.
Rolls Royce/ Siemens/ ADM - on the list of Western firms that have fallen foul of anti bribery laws ‘at home’ for shenanigans in Indonesia
Andy20vt said:
Zigster said:
Earthdweller said:
My sources tell me
Met estimate :200k
LFB estimate :450k
“My sources” ... Met estimate :200k
LFB estimate :450k
That’s really convincing. Either they are credible sources and you can name them, or they aren’t credible.
And why do the Brexiteers comment on this anyway? On one hand they claim they don't care about the march, it means nothing apparently. On the other hand they try to belittle it because they see it as a threat.
So which one is it? Do you care or not care, because if you don't care as you claim the march seems to have done a bl*ody good job of winding you right up?
Those saying the EU is facing recession and therefore we need to look elsewhere for trade might be interested to read the US is now facing recessionary concerns.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-stocks/u...
Should we move away from the US?
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-stocks/u...
Should we move away from the US?
steve_k said:
Nickgnome said:
steve_k said:
Think about it for a second, a fishing boat will have a fully laden weight, what fills a fishing boat quicker taking all the fish caught home when emptying the nets or throwing half back?
Throwing fish back means catching and killing more fish to fill the boat.
Sadly your logic is completely flawed.Throwing fish back means catching and killing more fish to fill the boat.
Hopefully if you discuss with some fisheries experts you will understand why.
If a boat is able to sell fish it should not have caught it will promote illegal fishing as the fishermen will not have to search out the legal fish shoals.
So they will fish more, not less as it will be more profitable thus reducing stocks further.
The discard system is to encourage fisherman to be far more careful in the species they catch, through fish finding technology and fishing methods.
It is not as straightforward as you may want it to be which is why, if you are really interested, rather than just chatting on here, that you take advice.
Piha said:
Those saying the EU is facing recession and therefore we need to look elsewhere for trade might be interested to read the US is now facing recessionary concerns.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-stocks/u...
Should we move away from the US?
In a truly free market, we can, of course, diversify our risks.https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-stocks/u...
Should we move away from the US?
Nickgnome said:
The discard system is to encourage fisherman to be far more careful in the species they catch, through fish finding technology and fishing methods.
quite frankly lost for words you can claim the above with a straight face. The discard system was a terrible idea, that's why even the EU accepted that finally and it was phased out. Wc98 had earlier posted the much better ways for monitoring/management but the spanish/french typically are dead set against those measures as they never had an issue breaking the discard rules anyway. Andy20vt said:
WTO Rules . . . .
Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
Interesting anecdotes but your friends' unfortunate experiences happened whilst the UK was the EU; the scenarios you mention are nothing new. Are you suggesting Chinese plagiarism will be worse if were to leave the EU? Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 25th March 09:51
Crackie said:
Interesting anecdotes but your friends' unfortunate experiences happened whilst the UK was the EU; the scenarios you mention are nothing new. Are you suggesting Chinese plagiarism will be worse if were to leave the EU?
No I am suggesting that if we damage our trade with the EU, and think that WTO will be the sort of replacement panacea (that some on here believe it will be) - think again!And so far as trade deals go, we might be on WTO for an awful lot longer than we expect. See here:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/how-long-do...
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