How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 9)
Discussion
Andy20vt said:
Vanden Saab said:
Well done, you have proved my point for me. If we leave without an agreement we immediately start to trade under WTO rules. That is not the end point but the start. It is not our problem that the EU will not even start to discuss future arrangements until we have left. If the WA and Transition agreement was anything but an attempt to keep us in I would be supporting it.
Extremist remainers ….. do you really need reminding?
Extremist Leavers, proud to be associated with this sort of thing:Extremist remainers ….. do you really need reminding?
Edited by Vanden Saab on Monday 25th March 08:11
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/br...
The small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Crackie said:
Andy20vt said:
WTO Rules . . . .
Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
Interesting anecdotes but your friends' unfortunate experiences happened whilst the UK was the EU; the scenarios you mention are nothing new. Are you suggesting Chinese plagiarism will be worse if were to leave the EU? Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
Many moons ago I worked in the speaker industry. In 2004 I came up with an idea of making a TV stand with surround sound speakers built in; it used Dolby digital processing, had a sub built in. It was a world first apparently and a couple of different models sold through John Lewis' until approx. 2010 and the the project went ahead based on a two year tooling amortisation period. Having had many audio products made in China previously, my company directors expected it to take approx. 30 months before there were copies of the stand in the UK. It took 24 months for the clones to arrive.
isaldiri said:
Nickgnome said:
The discard system is to encourage fisherman to be far more careful in the species they catch, through fish finding technology and fishing methods.
quite frankly lost for words you can claim the above with a straight face. The discard system was a terrible idea, that's why even the EU accepted that finally and it was phased out. Wc98 had earlier posted the much better ways for monitoring/management but the spanish/french typically are dead set against those measures as they never had an issue breaking the discard rules anyway. Whether fishermen abide by the rules is a completely different issue and a mater of policing.
If you had read my previous post you would has seen that I stated I had not read the current proposals.
You could of course post the current/future regulations to enlighten us all.
Piha said:
I was trying to engage with the small but noisy Brexiteer protest in Trafalgar Sq on Saturday and they informed me that "all the football firms will be turning up" for Nigel's march in London. I dread to think what will happen when drink fuelled rival football supporters congregate in central London.
The small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Cool story bro. Seems legitThe small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Piha said:
I was trying to engage with the small but noisy Brexiteer protest in Trafalgar Sq on Saturday and they informed me that "all the football firms will be turning up" for Nigel's march in London. I dread to think what will happen when drink fuelled rival football supporters congregate in central London.
The small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Please stand in the middle with your remain banner and EU flagThe small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
CAPP0 said:
NorfolkInClue1 said:
Oh, and we found out that 5m remainers have a valid email address but the other 11 million are either too angry to type or have switched to remain.
Good point nicely made, although:NorfolkInClue1 said:
....switched to Leave
surely?
Oops, yep, just changed it.
Almost beacame a victim of the brainwashing.
I’ve given myself a good talking to, written warning is in the post from Gammon HQ.
Andy20vt said:
WTO Rules . . . .
Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
43% of our current trade is on WTO rules, and this is growing. Our EU trade is declining, and with the Eurozone on brink of recession may accelerate this.Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
As to your two contacts - the copyright infringement is a sad fact of life and dealing via EU or WTO rules would make zero difference. The Chinese have form - I recall a Top Gear episode where they tested a knock off X5 BMW, identical bar the badges. Everything from iPhones to trainers are copied and very tough to resolve even as a large mn company.
The difficulty in chasing payment and lack of resolution mechanism again is a problem since trade began. You need to ask why an Indian company uses a U.K. marketing organisation, I’m pretty sure that they would have ample domestic capacity.
It would appear your answer to these and other trade conundrums is to only trade with or via the EU, albeit on the basis your friends did that already and still got turned over, I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. Trade is tough and merciless, people are nefarious and self serving, that is a fact of life.
WTO rules initially would be tough, post WTO FTA could be negotiated to benefit the U.K. specifically. The reverse of this is the recent EU/Japanese FTA which hugely benefits the European car manufacturers and industry at the cost of sacrificing most of the U.K. based car manufacturing and U.K. bases Japanese head offices. In a single swoop it gives tariff free access for the BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc to japan whilst removing and need for U.K. based Japanese car making. Had Nissan, Toyota and Honda has plants in Germany then I’m sure the discussion and outcome would have been different.
The EU looked after its own and shafted the U.K., and further examples of this have been where minority interests, French film makers as an example have scuppered or delayed trade deals with Canada. The fallout would have been a few thousand jobs, if that, yet here they have decimated the U.K. car industry in a single treaty, 10000s jobs and it’s not even acknowledged, other than feeble attempts to blame Brexit!
Experts suggest c.300k people at the march yesterday. More sensationalisation and brainwashing from the Remainer brigade. I was at the "no war in Iraq march" and they said 1m people were there, no way. nowhere near as many people at the "stop the Brexit march"...
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
Turfy said:
Experts suggest c.300k people at the march yesterday. More sensationalisation and brainwashing from the Remainer brigade. I was at the "no war in Iraq march" and they said 1m people were there, no way. nowhere near as many people at the "stop the Brexit march"...
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
100,000 were tourists https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
Nickgnome said:
I didn’t state it was a good idea. I stated the aim of the mechanism in response to Steve’s query. Nothing more.
Whether fishermen abide by the rules is a completely different issue and a mater of policing.
If you had read my previous post you would has seen that I stated I had not read the current proposals.
You could of course post the current/future regulations to enlighten us all.
On what planet do you think discards means more careful targeting rather than simply chucking over anything they can't sell and still going throug the same areas anyway? The aim might have been as you state but what matters is what actually happens on the water.Whether fishermen abide by the rules is a completely different issue and a mater of policing.
If you had read my previous post you would has seen that I stated I had not read the current proposals.
You could of course post the current/future regulations to enlighten us all.
You could of course bother to do so reading up about the current issues if you are going to proffer an opinion on it.
andymadmak said:
Piha said:
I was trying to engage with the small but noisy Brexiteer protest in Trafalgar Sq on Saturday and they informed me that "all the football firms will be turning up" for Nigel's march in London. I dread to think what will happen when drink fuelled rival football supporters congregate in central London.
The small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Cool story bro. Seems legitThe small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Mind you, you would hope that any police officer who witnessed someone swinging punches at an elderly lady would arrest them rather than move them on, such an arrest would surely have been referenced/witnessed by the public and caught on camera
Such a tense flash point must have been noticed by more than just one of the million followers as it would be brilliant media fodder.....just saying...
Oh, and Piha, you’re well short of 500 words, also a little late......
NorfolkInClue1 said:
Helicopter123 said:
Something about fish.
Leavers increasingly angry.
A 1m pro 2nd ref march in London and 5m sign revoke A50 petition.
Something about fishLeavers increasingly angry.
A 1m pro 2nd ref march in London and 5m sign revoke A50 petition.
Remainers increasingly bitter but still very very angry.
A few hundred thousand ( no proof of a million yet ) turned up in London for pro 2nd ref vote, funny though, I thought it was a poeple vote, guess the mask slipped.
Oh, and we found out that 5m remainers have a valid email address but the other 11 million are either too angry to type or have switched to leave.
Edited by NorfolkInClue1 on Monday 25th March 09:50
Edited by NorfolkInClue1 on Monday 25th March 09:56
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Turfy said:
Experts suggest c.300k people at the march yesterday. More sensationalisation and brainwashing from the Remainer brigade. I was at the "no war in Iraq march" and they said 1m people were there, no way. nowhere near as many people at the "stop the Brexit march"...
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
100,000 were tourists https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
Seriously chaps, just let it go if you think it's irrelevant.
scoobster999 said:
Andy20vt said:
WTO Rules . . . .
Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
43% of our current trade is on WTO rules, and this is growing. Our EU trade is declining, and with the Eurozone on brink of recession may accelerate this.Has anyone on here traded with the rest of the world? We trade with the EU and it is simple, straightforward and frictionless and if there are any problems with contracts etc. then we know there is the legal back up, commonality and infrastructure to generally get these things resolved in a low cost and transparent way. We have also exported to the US and this is a bit more problematic in terms of the hoops you have to jump through. Fine if you are a large multinational with huge teams of people organising the paperwork. Not so easy as a smaller but growing business.
What would really scare me though is doing business with anywhere outside the more Westernised of the WTO countries.
The growth, so they say is in Asia and I know personally of several other business owners who have been completely screwed over here. One has lost a business because of a cheaper Chinese copy of his most popular product, a blatant copyright infringement, imported into the UK meant that he couldn't compete with the Chinese version of his own product on cost! Tried to fight things through official channels but by the time the legal/bureaucratic process started to swing into action it was too late for him and he had to fold the business.
Another friend of mine runs a branding and advertising agency. He was approached by a large Indian company to help them with their updated brand identity. The Indian company paid the deposit invoice but despite them being openly happy with the result, the company failed to pay the remaining 50% due and still haven't 2 years later despite continuing to blatantly use my friends work. It caused a huge cashflow headache for my friends business and he had to lay off a couple of people because of it. They tried to pursue things but unfortunately there was very little chance of getting anywhere through the Indian courts. The Indian legal system is a total minefield/shambles and it quickly became apparent he was throwing good money after bad.
I am not fully conversant with WTO rules as we have, apart from our US transactions, never had to use them. From what I have heard though then the protection they would offer UK businesses is very limited. They seem to be often flouted or ignored.
Unless you are a huge multinational with the resources to police things, good luck trading on WTO terms is all I can say from my experience. Fine when it works, terrible if it doesn't.
As to your two contacts - the copyright infringement is a sad fact of life and dealing via EU or WTO rules would make zero difference. The Chinese have form - I recall a Top Gear episode where they tested a knock off X5 BMW, identical bar the badges. Everything from iPhones to trainers are copied and very tough to resolve even as a large mn company.
The difficulty in chasing payment and lack of resolution mechanism again is a problem since trade began. You need to ask why an Indian company uses a U.K. marketing organisation, I’m pretty sure that they would have ample domestic capacity.
It would appear your answer to these and other trade conundrums is to only trade with or via the EU, albeit on the basis your friends did that already and still got turned over, I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. Trade is tough and merciless, people are nefarious and self serving, that is a fact of life.
WTO rules initially would be tough, post WTO FTA could be negotiated to benefit the U.K. specifically. The reverse of this is the recent EU/Japanese FTA which hugely benefits the European car manufacturers and industry at the cost of sacrificing most of the U.K. based car manufacturing and U.K. bases Japanese head offices. In a single swoop it gives tariff free access for the BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc to japan whilst removing and need for U.K. based Japanese car making. Had Nissan, Toyota and Honda has plants in Germany then I’m sure the discussion and outcome would have been different.
The EU looked after its own and shafted the U.K., and further examples of this have been where minority interests, French film makers as an example have scuppered or delayed trade deals with Canada. The fallout would have been a few thousand jobs, if that, yet here they have decimated the U.K. car industry in a single treaty, 10000s jobs and it’s not even acknowledged, other than feeble attempts to blame Brexit!
People with longer term experience of OEM supply from the far east, and China in particular, know the risks involved. I've recently moved to sourcing individual componentry and sub assemblies from China ( and Indonesia ) because of the issues with turnkey OEM from China. The latest designs, including their main enclosure assemblies, will now moulded, assembled, tested, packed in the UK
Pre prod this week 
Edited by Crackie on Monday 25th March 10:27
Piha said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Turfy said:
Experts suggest c.300k people at the march yesterday. More sensationalisation and brainwashing from the Remainer brigade. I was at the "no war in Iraq march" and they said 1m people were there, no way. nowhere near as many people at the "stop the Brexit march"...
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
100,000 were tourists https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peopl...
Seriously chaps, just let it go if you think it's irrelevant.
NorfolkInClue1 said:
andymadmak said:
Piha said:
I was trying to engage with the small but noisy Brexiteer protest in Trafalgar Sq on Saturday and they informed me that "all the football firms will be turning up" for Nigel's march in London. I dread to think what will happen when drink fuelled rival football supporters congregate in central London.
The small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Cool story bro. Seems legitThe small Brexit protest was moved along by police officers when one of them started verbally abusing and swinging fists at an elderly lady.
Mind you, you would hope that any police officer who witnessed someone swinging punches at an elderly lady would arrest them rather than move them on, such an arrest would surely have been referenced/witnessed by the public and caught on camera
Such a tense flash point must have been noticed by more than just one of the million followers as it would be brilliant media fodder.....just saying...
Oh, and Piha, you’re well short of 500 words, also a little late......
NorfolkInClue1 said:
Oh, and we found out that 5m remainers have a valid email address but the other 11 million are either too angry to type or have switched to remain.
Maybe it's time for a nice cup of tea and a little nap?
Piha said:
Brexiteers keep telling us they're not interested in our glorious Remain marches, yet they just keep on bringing it up time and time again! They really can't help themselves.
Seriously chaps, just let it go if you think it's irrelevant.
Perfect.Seriously chaps, just let it go if you think it's irrelevant.
Stop posting figures that are completely made up.
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