Scrapping Age Related Benefits
Discussion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48046595
Read this article this morning and thought they have a point.
My 81 year old Dad was complaining at how badly the lump sum he derives his income drawdown was performing. So as to maintain its value he has decided not to take any income this year.
I was worried about how he'd manage till he dug out his pension paperwork and showed me his old age, care related and contribution based pensions amounted to £354 per week. That's not a kick in the arse off £18500 a year.
On top of that my Mum receives old age pensions and a teacher's superannuated pension.
They have no mortgage and no dependants.
This being the case why all the free stuff?
Am I going all socialist for thinking age related benifits should be means tested and the savings should be channelled into either in work benifits or increased tax allowance to help much poorer young working families?
Read this article this morning and thought they have a point.
My 81 year old Dad was complaining at how badly the lump sum he derives his income drawdown was performing. So as to maintain its value he has decided not to take any income this year.
I was worried about how he'd manage till he dug out his pension paperwork and showed me his old age, care related and contribution based pensions amounted to £354 per week. That's not a kick in the arse off £18500 a year.
On top of that my Mum receives old age pensions and a teacher's superannuated pension.
They have no mortgage and no dependants.
This being the case why all the free stuff?
Am I going all socialist for thinking age related benifits should be means tested and the savings should be channelled into either in work benifits or increased tax allowance to help much poorer young working families?
Tannedbaldhead said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48046595
Read this article this morning and thought they have a point.
My 81 year old Dad was complaining at how badly the lump sum he derives his income drawdown was performing. So as to maintain its value he has decided not to take any income this year.
I was worried about how he'd manage till he dug out his pension paperwork and showed me his old age, care related and contribution based pensions amounted to £354 per week. That's not a kick in the arse off £18500 a year.
On top of that my Mum receives old age pensions and a teacher's superannuated pension.
They have no mortgage and no dependants.
This being the case why all the free stuff?
Am I going all socialist for thinking age related benifits should be means tested and the savings should be channelled into either in work benifits or increased tax allowance to help much poorer young working families?
That sounds logical but have not your parents paid into a system all their life for what reason?Read this article this morning and thought they have a point.
My 81 year old Dad was complaining at how badly the lump sum he derives his income drawdown was performing. So as to maintain its value he has decided not to take any income this year.
I was worried about how he'd manage till he dug out his pension paperwork and showed me his old age, care related and contribution based pensions amounted to £354 per week. That's not a kick in the arse off £18500 a year.
On top of that my Mum receives old age pensions and a teacher's superannuated pension.
They have no mortgage and no dependants.
This being the case why all the free stuff?
Am I going all socialist for thinking age related benifits should be means tested and the savings should be channelled into either in work benifits or increased tax allowance to help much poorer young working families?
A system to work out who is entitled is sometimes more expensive than a system that doesn't discriminate.
Sadly if they need to go into a home at any stage the costs are are eye watering and are means tested, any benefits they have now will quickly disappear into the cost of being cared for.
There is a lot of logic to means-testing benefits. Much of it already goes on of course. If someone needs a downstairs loo or assistance to get upstairs, there is means tested funding from the local authority available. We had a blind 80+ woman living next door who needed a stairlift. The paperwork was involved and invasive.
The history of means testing shows that it can be used almost as a weapon against the poor. Read some of the histories of the inter-war period to see the ways in which many of those in authority behaved. So it needs careful monitoring.
Many of the current allowances have a form of means-testing. Most of those who are entitled to allowances do not claim them. There are 'advisers' who will walk claimants through the processes, some of which seem designed to thwart the less than totally committed.
The simple method is to tax allowances. Some are not counted as income but many are so, in a very real way they are means tested.
The logic of means-testing needs to be tempered with good sense.
Whilst I don't use public transport except in extremis, I think the free bus passes are a brilliant idea. It is, in reality, a subsidy for the bus service, but round my way it seems to get the very old out and about. It's an encouragement to a healthy lifestyle.
The history of means testing shows that it can be used almost as a weapon against the poor. Read some of the histories of the inter-war period to see the ways in which many of those in authority behaved. So it needs careful monitoring.
Many of the current allowances have a form of means-testing. Most of those who are entitled to allowances do not claim them. There are 'advisers' who will walk claimants through the processes, some of which seem designed to thwart the less than totally committed.
The simple method is to tax allowances. Some are not counted as income but many are so, in a very real way they are means tested.
The logic of means-testing needs to be tempered with good sense.
Whilst I don't use public transport except in extremis, I think the free bus passes are a brilliant idea. It is, in reality, a subsidy for the bus service, but round my way it seems to get the very old out and about. It's an encouragement to a healthy lifestyle.
PRTVR said:
That sounds logical but have not your parents paid into a system all their life for what reason?
To pay for the society they live in? For their bins to be emptied, for healthcare and education and police, and pensioners too. It's not an investment which is returned when they retire. Their money has been spent, and today's taxpayer contributes to them, just as they contributed towards non-taxpayers during their life.
amusingduck said:
PRTVR said:
That sounds logical but have not your parents paid into a system all their life for what reason?
To pay for the society they live in? For their bins to be emptied, for healthcare and education and police, and pensioners too. It's not an investment which is returned when they retire. Their money has been spent, and today's taxpayer contributes to them, just as they contributed towards non-taxpayers during their life.
Child benefit is universal and non means tested up to £50k earnings, when it becomes taxable. Let's stop that too. Oh, and free nursery school provision.
I think they will bite off more than they can chew if they mess with bus passes. These are very fondly received by pensioners, many of whom have passed their driving years, or who can no longer afford a car. Shops are so centralised nowadays that using a bus for daily shopping trips is an essential, and buses are bloody expensive. Also, without pensioners using buses during the day, many routes would be threatened.
As I said in another post a day or two back, after having saved and provided ourselves with pensions for our retirement, Mrs Toothless and I still pay a sizeable income tax bill, as well as all the other sales related taxes.
I think they will bite off more than they can chew if they mess with bus passes. These are very fondly received by pensioners, many of whom have passed their driving years, or who can no longer afford a car. Shops are so centralised nowadays that using a bus for daily shopping trips is an essential, and buses are bloody expensive. Also, without pensioners using buses during the day, many routes would be threatened.
As I said in another post a day or two back, after having saved and provided ourselves with pensions for our retirement, Mrs Toothless and I still pay a sizeable income tax bill, as well as all the other sales related taxes.
PRTVR said:
amusingduck said:
PRTVR said:
That sounds logical but have not your parents paid into a system all their life for what reason?
To pay for the society they live in? For their bins to be emptied, for healthcare and education and police, and pensioners too. It's not an investment which is returned when they retire. Their money has been spent, and today's taxpayer contributes to them, just as they contributed towards non-taxpayers during their life.
amusingduck said:
PRTVR said:
That sounds logical but have not your parents paid into a system all their life for what reason?
To pay for the society they live in? For their bins to be emptied, for healthcare and education and police, and pensioners too. It's not an investment which is returned when they retire. Their money has been spent, and today's taxpayer contributes to them, just as they contributed towards non-taxpayers during their life.
I agree that it's not a pot of money, but that's true of many pensions.
Means testing pensions is just an incentive not to save, but to rely on the state.
Change the pension system?
We all know what a fabulous job the government did with universal credit don't we?
Starving pensioners won't make good election headlines.
Anyhow pensioners are the only ones who will bother to vote at the next election, everyone else will think voting is pointless.
We all know what a fabulous job the government did with universal credit don't we?
Starving pensioners won't make good election headlines.
Anyhow pensioners are the only ones who will bother to vote at the next election, everyone else will think voting is pointless.
Dixy said:
I live in a rural area with high demographic of retired. They all get bus passes yet a 17 year old going to sixth form college is required to pay nearly a thousand pounds a year.
Scrap all age related payments, age discrimination is not acceptable in either direction.
So do we and the bus companies take advantage and charge extortionate prices as they know 90% of their customers don't pay!Scrap all age related payments, age discrimination is not acceptable in either direction.
98elise said:
amusingduck said:
PRTVR said:
That sounds logical but have not your parents paid into a system all their life for what reason?
To pay for the society they live in? For their bins to be emptied, for healthcare and education and police, and pensioners too. It's not an investment which is returned when they retire. Their money has been spent, and today's taxpayer contributes to them, just as they contributed towards non-taxpayers during their life.
I agree that it's not a pot of money, but that's true of many pensions.
Means testing pensions is just an incentive not to save, but to rely on the state.
I actually saw the OPs comment about his dad getting £350 or so a week as hope for me and others in our middle age.
I've worked since I was 17 and have now in my late 50s an okish portfolio of ISAS and a pretty poor pension pot.
Work is drying up and I still have 3 teens and an ex wife to support.
Retirement is looking pretty grim unless I fek off to some remote part of the UK now and leave my responsibilities behind.
We should have the Scandinavian system here where we pay high taxes knowing that we'll be OK when old and/or ill.
OP, is the amount your dad gets his old age pension and the various benefits like housing, travel, subsidised council tax etc?
I've worked since I was 17 and have now in my late 50s an okish portfolio of ISAS and a pretty poor pension pot.
Work is drying up and I still have 3 teens and an ex wife to support.
Retirement is looking pretty grim unless I fek off to some remote part of the UK now and leave my responsibilities behind.
We should have the Scandinavian system here where we pay high taxes knowing that we'll be OK when old and/or ill.
OP, is the amount your dad gets his old age pension and the various benefits like housing, travel, subsidised council tax etc?
If you means test everything we’ll pay more in administering the schemes than they costs currently, so doesn’t make logical sense. Bus companies all get subsidies from the government anyway don’t they so we in effect pay stagecoach et al for running their services even for paying customers.
Tannedbaldhead said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48046595
Read this article this morning and thought they have a point.
My 81 year old Dad was complaining at how badly the lump sum he derives his income drawdown was performing. So as to maintain its value he has decided not to take any income this year.
I was worried about how he'd manage till he dug out his pension paperwork and showed me his old age, care related and contribution based pensions amounted to £354 per week. That's not a kick in the arse off £18500 a year.
On top of that my Mum receives old age pensions and a teacher's superannuated pension.
They have no mortgage and no dependants.
This being the case why all the free stuff?
Am I going all socialist for thinking age related benifits should be means tested and the savings should be channelled into either in work benifits or increased tax allowance to help much poorer young working families?
i agree, i think it should be based on a spelling test around the age of 40. if you can't spell a range of commonly used words they are stopped immediately Read this article this morning and thought they have a point.
My 81 year old Dad was complaining at how badly the lump sum he derives his income drawdown was performing. So as to maintain its value he has decided not to take any income this year.
I was worried about how he'd manage till he dug out his pension paperwork and showed me his old age, care related and contribution based pensions amounted to £354 per week. That's not a kick in the arse off £18500 a year.
On top of that my Mum receives old age pensions and a teacher's superannuated pension.
They have no mortgage and no dependants.
This being the case why all the free stuff?
Am I going all socialist for thinking age related benifits should be means tested and the savings should be channelled into either in work benifits or increased tax allowance to help much poorer young working families?
you pay into the system today and in return are looked after later. While costs go up so have wages an thus tax paid. OP's dad is entitled to it and has contributed to society and now society is looking after him. The 17 year old lad on the bus route is able to work and travel (he will find it costly like we all did at the start).
So no lets stop messing about with pensions
So no lets stop messing about with pensions
PRTVR said:
amusingduck said:
PRTVR said:
That sounds logical but have not your parents paid into a system all their life for what reason?
To pay for the society they live in? For their bins to be emptied, for healthcare and education and police, and pensioners too. It's not an investment which is returned when they retire. Their money has been spent, and today's taxpayer contributes to them, just as they contributed towards non-taxpayers during their life.
Gecko1978 said:
you pay into the system today and in return are looked after later. While costs go up so have wages an thus tax paid. OP's dad is entitled to it and has contributed to society and now society is looking after him. The 17 year old lad on the bus route is able to work and travel (he will find it costly like we all did at the start).
So no lets stop messing about with pensions
The 17 year old is required by law to attend further education, nothing was said about pensions.So no lets stop messing about with pensions
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