Balanced Question Time panel tonight - of course not! Vol 3
Discussion
Brave Fart said:
But this is a bogus argument. The Brexit question was about the UK. It didn't say "vote on which way my bit of the UK wants to go" did it? Had it been a "vote for your region" question the result may have been different. Therefore, the whole "Scotland voted to stay" claim is invalid for three reasons:
1) as stated, it was a UK-wide vote
2) if there was independence now, Scotland would be out of the EU anyway
3) we haven't seen the results of leaving yet.
There is zero justification for a second Indyref. The SNP should focus their energy on making Scotland better, until at least a generation has passed.
I don’t know if you saw the “for what it’s worth” in my post, but it meant just that. It might not be worth anything to you, or me, but it will be to the SNP, which is kind of the point of what I was saying.1) as stated, it was a UK-wide vote
2) if there was independence now, Scotland would be out of the EU anyway
3) we haven't seen the results of leaving yet.
There is zero justification for a second Indyref. The SNP should focus their energy on making Scotland better, until at least a generation has passed.
markyb_lcy said:
It’s not my fight to have, I’m not Scottish. All I’m saying is that it has added fuel to the SNP fire.
If the people of Scotland and the Scottish parliament want Indy ref 2, they should have it.
Convincing ourselves that we can somehow hold them hostage as part of the uk will very quickly increase support for independence there, from people who previously might well have voted to stay were a 2nd referendum granted in good faith.
Its not quite as simple as that because if you think that the Scots Nats would be expecting to pick up the cost of separation themselves you'd be wrong I suspect. We'd all pay for it & it would make the cost of HS2 look like pocket change.If the people of Scotland and the Scottish parliament want Indy ref 2, they should have it.
Convincing ourselves that we can somehow hold them hostage as part of the uk will very quickly increase support for independence there, from people who previously might well have voted to stay were a 2nd referendum granted in good faith.
The Nats represent at best 3% of the population of the UK (maybe 4% if they win their referendum) - yet they'd cheerfully expect the remaining 96% to foot the bill for creating their independent land of milk & honey.
f
k that!The other fantasy land issue with them joining the EU is whether they would expect to be a net financial contributor to it. No chance of that I think! In which case does the EU really need another basket case economy latching on? Probably not, they will get stalled at the gate.
Wombat3 said:
markyb_lcy said:
It’s not my fight to have, I’m not Scottish. All I’m saying is that it has added fuel to the SNP fire.
If the people of Scotland and the Scottish parliament want Indy ref 2, they should have it.
Convincing ourselves that we can somehow hold them hostage as part of the uk will very quickly increase support for independence there, from people who previously might well have voted to stay were a 2nd referendum granted in good faith.
Its not quite as simple as that because if you think that the Scots Nats would be expecting to pick up the cost of separation themselves you'd be in "Cuckoo land." We'd all pay for it & it would make the cost of HS2 look like pocket change.If the people of Scotland and the Scottish parliament want Indy ref 2, they should have it.
Convincing ourselves that we can somehow hold them hostage as part of the uk will very quickly increase support for independence there, from people who previously might well have voted to stay were a 2nd referendum granted in good faith.
The Nats represent at best 3% of the population of the UK (maybe 4% if they win their referendum) - yet they'd cheerfully expect the remaining 96% to foot the bill for creating their independent land of milk & honey.
f
k that!The other fantasy land issue with them joining the EU is whether they would expect to be a net financial contributor to it. No chance of that I think! In which case does the EU really need another basket case economy latching on? Probably not, they will get stalled at the gate.
Military might of the British Empire?
markyb_lcy said:
Wombat3 said:
markyb_lcy said:
It’s not my fight to have, I’m not Scottish. All I’m saying is that it has added fuel to the SNP fire.
If the people of Scotland and the Scottish parliament want Indy ref 2, they should have it.
Convincing ourselves that we can somehow hold them hostage as part of the uk will very quickly increase support for independence there, from people who previously might well have voted to stay were a 2nd referendum granted in good faith.
Its not quite as simple as that because if you think that the Scots Nats would be expecting to pick up the cost of separation themselves you'd be in "Cuckoo land." We'd all pay for it & it would make the cost of HS2 look like pocket change.If the people of Scotland and the Scottish parliament want Indy ref 2, they should have it.
Convincing ourselves that we can somehow hold them hostage as part of the uk will very quickly increase support for independence there, from people who previously might well have voted to stay were a 2nd referendum granted in good faith.
The Nats represent at best 3% of the population of the UK (maybe 4% if they win their referendum) - yet they'd cheerfully expect the remaining 96% to foot the bill for creating their independent land of milk & honey.
f
k that!The other fantasy land issue with them joining the EU is whether they would expect to be a net financial contributor to it. No chance of that I think! In which case does the EU really need another basket case economy latching on? Probably not, they will get stalled at the gate.
Military might of the British Empire?
The UK Government has an intrinsic duty of care to the rest of the population to ensure that a small group of economically illiterate crackpot nationalists can't damage the rest of us.
Besides, the SNP's trajectory is "south" . They have had more scandals than positive news & their mismanagement of Scotland is being laid bare. It would not be unreasonable to expect them to get a thorough kicking at the ballot box next May - at which point they should sink into irrelevance.
markyb_lcy said:
Thorodin said:
It's been so long since the B ref, I've forgotten some of the conditions. Did Scotland voters get a vote in that referendum or not?
I’m sure this is a somewhat sarcastic comment but I’m not entirely sure how exactly.Scotland, being part of the Uk, was indeed part of the electorate for the brexit referendum. The Uk as a whole voted with a majority of 52% to leave. Scotland as part of the uk, for what it’s worth, voted 62% to remain in the EU. This, coupled with the Better Together campaign during Indy ref 1 making such a big thing to Scots of securing their place in the EU by voting to stay in the UK, does really give the SNP an angle to say “things have changed” and to justify a 2nd Indy ref.
Tories can do their hardest to deny them it, but if the Scots want it badly enough, eventually they’ll get it, or Scottish parliament will hold one anyway in a semi-legal setting.
Ultimately, if they want as a majority to leave the UK, then they will, and we shouldn’t try to stop them.
On reflection I remain, if that's not a dirty word, of the view that what's good for Scotland is good for the rest of us and vice versa. United Kingdom?
In other blunter words Scotland, or rather the SNP by itself, can wriggle but to obtain the considerable benefits of UK membership involves responsibilities they seem to want to reject entirely for narrow political purposes.
This hostile attitude seems rooted in darker ambition coming from baser instinct and historical enmity. Just why the SNP can be seen as the predominant voice of Scotland is beyond most of the rest of the UK as evidenced by the recent election and the minority support the SNP received from the democratic electorate in Scotland. The argument is redundant.
Even with exclusively Scottish support they do not have justification and continually divisive campaigning takes attention away from the real issues Scotland faces. It amounts to not only redundant but also a diversionary tactic.
Wombat3 said:
markyb_lcy said:
...
What’s the alternative? (Assuming they do have a vote and vote to leave)
Military might of the British Empire?
I doubt very much they would get to have a vote until such time as they can present a credible plan that deals with all the hard stuff and which protects/insulates the rest of the UK. What’s the alternative? (Assuming they do have a vote and vote to leave)
Military might of the British Empire?
The UK Government has an intrinsic duty of care to the rest of the population to ensure that a small group of economically illiterate crackpot nationalists can't damage the rest of us.
Besides, the SNP's trajectory is "south" . They have had more scandals than positive news & their mismanagement of Scotland is being laid bare. It would not be unreasonable to expect them to get a thorough kicking at the ballot box next May - at which point they should sink into irrelevance.
There is no majority for another referendum, let alone for the Scots to go independent. I am perplexed as to how the SNP keep on getting into power as they do, but put this down to the Scots having a twisted sense of humour
Murph7355 said:
There is no majority for another referendum, let alone for the Scots to go independent. I am perplexed as to how the SNP keep on getting into power as they do, but put this down to the Scots having a twisted sense of humour
Not all SNP votes are people wanting independence. Like the rest of the U.K. there are some that are just voting for the least worst option, some are tactical voting to stop labour In seats that maybe won’t vote conservative or libdem. Some people think the snp are ok at running things but still don’t want independence and know they can vote no in a referendum despite voting SNP in a general election.
Don’t think SNP support is indicative of support for independence or a referendum. Polls frequently show people in Scotland not wanting independence despite brexit.
Murph7355 said:
There is no majority for another referendum, let alone for the Scots to go independent. I am perplexed as to how the SNP keep on getting into power as they do, but put this down to the Scots having a twisted sense of humour
Two reasons1. Every time there is an election the SNP trot out the line that people who do not support independence can safely vote for them because of their other policies, then immediately volte-face on this once the election results are announced - hijacking the result as unequivocal support for independence. Nicola even did it in the same sentence on live TV the morning after the last general election.
2. The (majority) unionist vote is split between three parties.
PS. Joanna Cherry has her sights clearly set on Nicola Sturgeon's job, and Derek MacKay's predilections just made her ambitions more achievable.
More on the Scottish Independence thread.....
Edited by Evercross on Monday 17th February 13:57
Fiona Bruce presents an hour of debate from Weymouth. Topics will include the fallout from the suicide of Caroline Flack. HS2 The evils of restricting immigration and probably the nastiness of the Conservatives
On the panel: George Eustice MP, Conservative;
Alison McGovern MP, Labour;
Howard Davies, RBC Chairman ex Deputy Governor Bank Of England
Ash Sarkar columnist and avid twitter look at me user
and Michael Portillo.
On the panel: George Eustice MP, Conservative;
Alison McGovern MP, Labour;
Howard Davies, RBC Chairman ex Deputy Governor Bank Of England
Ash Sarkar columnist and avid twitter look at me user
and Michael Portillo.
thetapeworm said:
markyb_lcy said:
Ash sarkar has been getting far too many appearances imo.
I was just going to say the same, apart from combative babble she doesn't tend to bring a great deal to the party. markyb_lcy said:
As someone who is pretty well left of centre I find her quite an embarrassment. She claims to represent the youth but really only represents momentum fodder. I doubt she knows anything about what it’s like to live outside London.
She's not even the worst. The woman on Newsnight tonight takes some beating.Labour have a bit of a rich vein of form of showing women in politics in a bad light.
TPSA7514 said:
Fiona Bruce presents an hour of debate from Weymouth. Topics will include the fallout from the suicide of Caroline Flack. HS2 The evils of restricting immigration and probably the nastiness of the Conservatives
On the panel: George Eustice MP, Conservative;
Alison McGovern MP, Labour;
Howard Davies, RBC Chairman ex Deputy Governor Bank Of England
Ash Sarkar columnist and avid twitter look at me user
and Michael Portillo.
Ash Sarkar - Journalist ...........and extreme left wing, World Transformed, Novara Media, Anti-Imperialist, Momentum cheeleader and proud communist................seems reasonable for a teacher of politics at Anglia Ruskin Uni. On the panel: George Eustice MP, Conservative;
Alison McGovern MP, Labour;
Howard Davies, RBC Chairman ex Deputy Governor Bank Of England
Ash Sarkar columnist and avid twitter look at me user
and Michael Portillo.
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