Please give me advice about our aggressive dog

Please give me advice about our aggressive dog

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deadtom

Original Poster:

2,550 posts

164 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
Dear PH,

My partner and I are in a bit of a pickle about what to do about our collie cross;

She is a rescue from Romania, just under 2 years old (we think; her birthday is listed as 1 September which sounds a bit like a nominal date given when not sure of the actual date?). Her background is uncertain but I believe she had a family in Romania before being bought to the UK by a rescue centre who bring in a lot of dogs from Romania. She was adopted by a family in the UK who then had to give her up again because she did not get on well with their husky. We then got her from the shelter about 8 months ago. She came to us in good health, all shots administered, passport up to date, chipped and spayed.

The shelter told us that she had been mistreated before (as, sadly, so many are in Romania) and that she was often timid and afraid; she would lay on the ground and back away from people she didn't know. This tallied with our experience when we met her but she soon warmed to us, so we decided to give her a new home.

However, since bringing her home her behaviour quickly changed from timid to fiercely defensive of us and her territory. She is a joy to live with at home for both my partner and I, however she is quite aggressive towards people that she doesn't know. The following is 99% aimed at men she meets, but very occasionally women as well:

- out on walks, especially in confined spaces she will snarl, lunge and snap
- in the house it will be as above, but more so
- although normally she plays brilliantly, she has attacked and drawn blood from other dogs who come into what she regards as her territory (possibly this is why her previous owners with the husky had to give her up?), and what she regards as her territory is not just our home, but also places she is familiar with she will start to regard as her own
- given enough time she will become friendly with others, however she is very quick to revert to aggression if a mistake is made, e.g. my father trod on her paw/tail by accident and she snapped and growled at him rather than yelping and recoiling as most dogs do

We have tried a lot of training methods, and while they show some success in ideal conditions, as soon as the red mist comes down all we can do is physically restrain her and remove her from the situation.

We are now facing the very tough decision about whats best for her and us; it's affecting our lives as we can't have friends round, we can't take her with us to see family, we can't take her out in public, going for a walk is almost constant stress and worry for us, and frustrating for her as we aren't comfortable with her off the lead so she doesn't get a run around.

But when we are at home, she is the perfect dog.

The 'ideal' for us would be to rehome her with someone who doesn't mind taking on a project and who is in a better situation to care for her, but there are so many dogs that need rehoming, who would take on one with known aggression issues?

Which brings us to euthenisation, but that would be very hard for me, and absolutely heartbreaking for my partner (she is the favourite and our dog is besotted with her), and just seems like such a cruel waste of a life.

The first recommendation always seems to be to see a behaviourist, but we are struggling to make ends meet each month as it is; the money simply isn't there to give her what I'm sure would be years of work to undo the damage done.

What would the PH masses do/have you done in a similar situation?

Edited by deadtom on Monday 1st July 10:36

deadtom

Original Poster:

2,550 posts

164 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
Oh and I should add that while she has 'nipped' people, she has not (yet) landed a proper bite on anyone, and we would be absolutely mortified if she did so.

popeyewhite

19,621 posts

119 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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You've done what you could, now rehome.

Hindsight, I know, but your story has almost completely encapsulated why it pays to be vey wary taking on a rescue dog.

moorx

3,480 posts

113 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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I'm no expert, and haven't dealt with a dog with this level of problems before, but two things spring immediately to mind.

First - if you haven't already, get a muzzle for when she's outside of the house. Baskerville is one make. A muzzle has the dual advantage of preventing your dog damaging other dogs or people, and also sending a visual message to people which tends to make them give you more space.

Secondly - have you contacted the rescue she came from? Any decent rescue should offer lifetime back-up, which may include behavioural support. They should also be willing to take back a dog you can no longer keep.

Edited by moorx on Monday 1st July 10:42

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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Yes she needs a behaviourist.

But if you can't afford it and the rescue can't help then sign her over. Just because you don't want/can't spend money is no reason to kill a dog that hadn't bitten anyone


Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 1st July 10:44

moorx

3,480 posts

113 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
keirik said:
Yes she needs a behaviourist.

But if you can't afford it and the rescue can't help then sign her over. Just because you don't want/can't spend money is no reason to kill a dog.
I agree with your last statement, but sign her over to who?

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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moorx said:
keirik said:
Yes she needs a behaviourist.

But if you can't afford it and the rescue can't help then sign her over. Just because you don't want/can't spend money is no reason to kill a dog.
I agree with your last statement, but sign her over to who?
A local rescue that you trust.

CAPP0

19,530 posts

202 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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Definitely try a behaviourist.

And if you use a muzzle, don't get one of those "sleeve" type which slides over the muzzle - they are for very short term use (short term as in a few mins, not as in only for a few months) because when it gets hot the dog can't pant properly and control it's body heat, which can be dangerous.

SeeFive

8,280 posts

232 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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Had this with my westie. Had him from a pup, he was socialised and happy at training classes etc. He had a fear biting thing about him and was quite timid with other dogs when out walking. God help anyone who went near his hind quarters... including the groomer... thick motorcycle gloves for that one after receiving my first set of scars from him on my hands smile

Then at about 4 years old, he developed some weird pack mentality where he became aggressive and was stalking the kids around the house with a weird skulking gait. He previously had some rare unpredictable behaviour issues, such as after sitting on your lap quite happily for ages, he would jump and snap at your face! He never made contact but it was quite out of the blue when it happened and nobody was excluded from such treatment.

Took him to the vet, they did tests to check his head out, took him to a pet shrink, still no change. The final straw was when he got to the stage where he was stalking the kids around the house incessantly. My parents (who he knew well and loved) gave him a change of scenery for a couple of weeks, but his behaviour didn’t change.

I could not take the risk of it developing to a full on attack, he was quite powerful for a little bugger. So I did the tearful journey to the vets with him, still not believing that I hadn’t missed something obvious. They agreed after following the recommendations for the months we did that there was nothing that could be done and it would be just moving the risk to rehome him. Basically, they suggested that he was nuts in slightly different words.

Like people, dogs can go bad. Then tough decisions need to be made on risk. I still feel guilty to this day, but take solace in the fact that we did all we could in conjunction with professionals at quite significant expense before the last and worst possible course of action.

popeyewhite

19,621 posts

119 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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moorx said:
First - if you haven't already, get a muzzle for when she's outside of the house.
The dog's a risk inside the house as well, it has an unpredictable temperament. No doubt we'll wait until it bites someone before we all agree?

deadtom

Original Poster:

2,550 posts

164 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
moorx said:
I'm no expert, and haven't dealt with a dog with this level of problems before, but two things spring immediately to mind.

First - if you haven't already, get a muzzle for when she's outside of the house. Baskerville is one make. A muzzle has the dual advantage of preventing your dog damaging other dogs or people, and also sending a visual message to people which tends to make them give you more space.

Secondly - have you contacted the rescue she came from? Any decent rescue should offer lifetime back-up, which may include behavioural support. They should also be willing to take back a dog you can no longer keep.

Edited by moorx on Monday 1st July 10:42
yes we have tried, and continue to try muzzle training with a baskerville style and the more comfortable 'sleeve' type, but unsurprisingly she really hates wearing it so it's very much ongoing.

Yes we have messaged the rescue centre, they have not replied.

We are reluctant to give her back to a rescue centre because either a) we are honest about her issues, she likely never gets rehomed and is put down after a few months of miserable life in a rescue centre, or b) we lie about her issues and hope that the next owners are better placed to deal with it when they inevitably find out.
We have messaged a couple but one said they wouldn't take an aggressive dog and the other said they have no space at the moment.

Also we have messaged a couple of behaviourists, one said they probably can't help her, one said they provide training followed by a whole year of support but wanted payment (lots) up front and the other said "buy my book, it's all in there"

We have an appointment to see our local vet on wednesday to discuss options with them.

If rehoming is possible, we would be more than happy to keep caring for her until a new owner can be found so that she doesn't have to go back to kennels, but is there any realistic chance of this happening?

Edited by deadtom on Monday 1st July 11:11

MYOB

4,767 posts

137 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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muzzle for outside. And crate or kennel in the house or garden for when you have visitors.

Longer term, see a pet behaviorist.

deadtom

Original Poster:

2,550 posts

164 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
How much should we expect to pay for a behaviourist to help?

If it's more than a couple of hundred then it would mean borrowing and going further into debt, which is possible, but I am trying to be objective about the point at which the negative effects on our quality of life become too severe.

CAPP0

19,530 posts

202 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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deadtom said:
How much should we expect to pay for a behaviourist to help?
I used one once to try and get to the bottom of a different issue, iirc it was £90 for a 90-minute-ish consultation. Sounds like you would need more than one session. You're in a different part of the country to me otherwise I could put you in touch with one or two people who may be able to help.

deadtom

Original Poster:

2,550 posts

164 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
MYOB said:
muzzle for outside. And crate or kennel in the house or garden for when you have visitors.

Longer term, see a pet behaviorist.
This has been our approach recently, but while a muzzle would physically inhibit her from biting people, would it also provide enough of a calming effect to stop her lunging at people in our home, or if we took her with us when we went to see family (and their numerous young children and pets)?

SeeFive

8,280 posts

232 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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deadtom said:
How much should we expect to pay for a behaviourist to help?

If it's more than a couple of hundred then it would mean borrowing and going further into debt, which is possible, but I am trying to be objective about the point at which the negative effects on our quality of life become too severe.
In my experience, the behaviourist treatment is a long term thing and will probably be more than a couple of hundred quid over the time it takes.

Our situation was blamed on his very early life. Probably a puppy farm problem, we didn’t get his history from the commercial seller that was promised at the point of purchase bu never sent through to us. He was crated from day 1 with us to give him his personal space which was respected by us, got lots of walks and play etc. He wasn’t good with other dogs when outside (fine at classes unless they went to his back end) timid, hiding behind us and fear biting. We tried everything that the vet could suggest, blood tests, shrinks, behavioural professionals with no change in his rapidly deteriorating and unpredictable behaviour.

Every case is different but prepare for some expense and disappointment along the way if your dog is genuinely wired differently to what is acceptable. Not wishing to be too negative, it could work out for your dog but it didn’t for ours unfortunately - but again, each case is different.

227bhp

10,203 posts

127 months

Monday 1st July 2019
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She probably can't understand English.

deadtom

Original Poster:

2,550 posts

164 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
SeeFive said:
Every case is different but prepare for some expense and disappointment along the way if your dog is genuinely wired differently to what is acceptable. Not wishing to be too negative, it could work out for your dog but it didn’t for ours unfortunately - but again, each case is different.
Thanks for your replies, and sorry to hear your story didn't have a happy ending.

I think the hardest thing is that it doesn't seem like she was created wrong, she just had a st start in life which has put her a long way down the path of distrust, fear, aggression and being territorial, but we just aren't in a position to give her the future she would need to correct all that. If we lived in a decent sized house in the middle of nowhere (and that is the dream), where she could have lots of her own space to run and play, or retreat to when people come over to avid having to be put in what she perceives as threatening situations, then everything would be fine. But that's not the situation we have now, or are likely to have, maybe ever.

deadtom

Original Poster:

2,550 posts

164 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
227bhp said:
She probably can't understand English.
laugh

I have made this joke many times, apparently it stops being funny after a while frown

moorx

3,480 posts

113 months

Monday 1st July 2019
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
moorx said:
First - if you haven't already, get a muzzle for when she's outside of the house.
The dog's a risk inside the house as well, it has an unpredictable temperament. No doubt we'll wait until it bites someone before we all agree?
I didn't say this was the answer to all the problems, it was a suggestion to address one of them.

Much as I may hate it, I'm not naive enough to think that every dog can be saved. Some have just been too badly damaged by humans. What I don't like is when rescues bring these badly damaged dogs in and then don't provide the back up they should. This means that the problem is then either passed on to someone else/another rescue centre or the current owner has to make some very difficult decisions, sometimes the hardest.

There are huge numbers of dogs needing homes at the moment - and many (despite what some think) do not have issues just because they are rescues. As the OP has discovered, rescue centres either just do not have space to take in dogs, or cannot risk taking on a dog with known aggression issues.