How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[wc98]

NoNeed said:

I don't remember a single post of yours that I have agreed with but on this you are correct.

I feel it is the result of multiculturalism as better intergration was never pursued, the same can be said for most western countries with large Muslim areas.

How the afd have got such a large following though is beyond me.

i would be interested to know why you take that view, for me it's easily understandable if the manifesto is anything to go by. i can't judge individuals in the party as i know nothing about them so there may well be issues in that department.

[FiF]

Murph7355 said:

Tuna said:

Helicopter123 said:

Others may follow.

Where's the Eastenders doof-doof sting when you need it?

I'd be quite surprised if others didn't follow. May tolerated some quite challenging views given her job was to actually deliver Brexit.

Johnson has set out his stall, so those hoping it'll all just go away are having to face the music. Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Nailed on that there'll be others. Plenty of them.

Can't imagine Johnson will be that bothered with people like Hammond, Duncan and presumably faces like Gauke and Stewart going. I would have thought he'd have replaced them anyway if they didn't jump.

It's also inevitable, IMO, that chunks of current Tory MPs are likely to vote against much of what he tries to do. The question will then be how many, and how many Labour MPs will net that off.

Where Brexit is concerned I'm not sure how much that will ultimately matter come 31st October as Parliament already set the default action. Grieve seems to be of the opinion that if a PM is strong willed enough there's not much can be done to stop the government - VoNC is likely to be the only route I suspect. Though I could quite easily see some modest "adjustments" being made to May's WA that would get it through. Ho hum if not.

The real trouble for Johnson will come after 31st October. Once Brexit is done, it will be interesting to see how many Tory MPs are prepared to vote against him.

Plenty more where that came from link

[amusingduck]

wc98 said:

NoNeed said:

I don't remember a single post of yours that I have agreed with but on this you are correct.

I feel it is the result of multiculturalism as better intergration was never pursued, the same can be said for most western countries with large Muslim areas.

How the afd have got such a large following though is beyond me.

i would be interested to know why you take that view, for me it's easily understandable if the manifesto is anything to go by. i can't judge individuals in the party as i know nothing about them so there may well be issues in that department.

Seems like pretty straightforward cause and effect to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_cri...

[wc98]

amusingduck said:

Seems like pretty straightforward cause and effect to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_cri...

certainly a major influence on their creation. i was expecting to find some hard right ideology in their stance on immigration and immigrants in the manifesto, instead i found they want to adopt the canadian approach. last time i looked no one was branding the canadians of the "hard right".

[NoNeed]

wc98 said:

NoNeed said:

I don't remember a single post of yours that I have agreed with but on this you are correct.

I feel it is the result of multiculturalism as better intergration was never pursued, the same can be said for most western countries with large Muslim areas.

How the afd have got such a large following though is beyond me.

i would be interested to know why you take that view, for me it's easily understandable if the manifesto is anything to go by. i can't judge individuals in the party as i know nothing about them so there may well be issues in that department.

I would expect people to consider their history when supporting politicians

[wc98]

NoNeed said:

would expect people to consider their history when supporting politicians

that's fair enough, i obviously have some more reading to do.

[bitchstewie]

wc98 said:

bhstewie said:

I agree there will be bits I agree with and bits I don't.

I think the question is how much would you tolerate to get what you want.

For example if a party stood on that manifesto in the UK and they were the only party offering Brexit, would you vote for them knowing that's their policy?

At the risk of sounding repetitive if Labour pulled that stunt with a specific "Ways we'll treat Jews differently" section of their manifesto they'd be utterly lambasted and rightly so.

Again, we don't have the AfD here, we had and have UKIP and we have Farage who seems happy to stand on a platform with these people.

that is the million dollar question, at the moment no, i wouldn't vote for them. having now read to page 86 and being pleasantly surprised by much of the content i have to say it really only is a couple of points i take issue with. same situation with all uk parties, i have to compromise my view or i wouldn't vote for any of them ever.

i will also risk sounding repetitive but could you be more specific on the exact words you have issues with in the manifesto. i think they are taking issue with certain aspects of islam, not islam or muslims as a whole. in relation to the uk and jews, i can think of one area that would target an aspect of their belief i would be happy to see a law change, that would be circumcision. that wouldn't be targeting because they were jewish ,but making a practice carried out for religious reasons illegal.

Thank you, appreciate the honesty.

I agree you have to compromise somewhere, but I'd like to think most people have limits where basic decency kicks in.

There are no specific words, the obvious areas I have issues with are the sections containing anti-Islam policies, that's just sinister st in my view.

Sometimes it's as simple as it walks like a duck and quacks and as NoNeed says, people need to simply consider their history when approaching this kind of thing to see where it can lead to.

Hence thinking it shows a distinct lack of judgement to be associating with them.

[amusingduck]

NoNeed said:

wc98 said:

NoNeed said:

I don't remember a single post of yours that I have agreed with but on this you are correct.

I feel it is the result of multiculturalism as better intergration was never pursued, the same can be said for most western countries with large Muslim areas.

How the afd have got such a large following though is beyond me.

i would be interested to know why you take that view, for me it's easily understandable if the manifesto is anything to go by. i can't judge individuals in the party as i know nothing about them so there may well be issues in that department.

I would expect people to consider their history when supporting politicians

How do you know they didn't? Maybe they decided that the AfD were worth the risk, or that they would send a message but not get into power, in an attempt to get the mainstream parties to change their tune?

[gooner1]

Helicopter123 said:

Sir Alan Duncan has quit as a Foreign Office minister in protest against a possible Boris Johnson victory in the Conservative leadership race.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49069880

Hardly a surprise, but it does mean he is no longer obliged to vote with the government and thus free to oppose any attempt at a "no deal" Brexit.

Others may follow.

This Alan Duncan?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefe...

[NoNeed]

amusingduck said:

How do you know they didn't? Maybe they decided that the AfD were worth the risk, or that they would send a message but not get into power, in an attempt to get the mainstream parties to change their tune?

of course I don't know but not being German I am unlikely to, I can only asess and speculate from my perspective.

[GT119]

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

[Dr Jekyll]

GT119 said:

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

The manifesto clearly says we will leave.

It also says no deal is better than a bad deal.

[Tuna]

GT119 said:

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

Are you saying that Boris is committed only to leaving with No Deal?

If these guys were serious about the state of the country, they'd be discussing how we could get to the best arrangement with the EU. Resigning to undermine any attempts at negotiation before the next PM is even selected speaks volumes to me.

[GT119]

Dr Jekyll said:

GT119 said:

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

The manifesto clearly says we will leave.

It also says no deal is better than a bad deal.

Yes it does say that once, yet it also says “We need to deliver a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union and forge a deep and special partnership with our friends and allies across Europe” more than half a dozen times.

It seems to me that it is significantly more justifiable to resign over no deal than to just ignore the fact that what has been presented to the electorate both before and after the referendum was definitely the opposite and to me it’s quite clear there never has never been (and never will be) majority support for a no deal outcome.

[Helicopter123]

Tuna said:

GT119 said:

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

Are you saying that Boris is committed only to leaving with No Deal?

If these guys were serious about the state of the country, they'd be discussing how we could get to the best arrangement with the EU. Resigning to undermine any attempts at negotiation before the next PM is even selected speaks volumes to me.

My understanding is that to serve in a Boris cabinet, Ministers will need to commit to support leaving without a deal on 31st October.

This is why a number of senior figures look set to resign as they feel unable to make that commitment.

I'm sure they will be supportive of a sensible deal from the back benches though.

[SunsetZed]

GT119 said:

Dr Jekyll said:

GT119 said:

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

The manifesto clearly says we will leave.

It also says no deal is better than a bad deal.

Yes it does say that once, yet it also says “We need to deliver a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union and forge a deep and special partnership with our friends and allies across Europe” more than half a dozen times.

It seems to me that it is significantly more justifiable to resign over no deal than to just ignore the fact that what has been presented to the electorate both before and after the referendum was definitely the opposite and to me it’s quite clear there never has never been (and never will be) majority support for a no deal outcome.

There was enough support in the last election for the largest party to be elected on the preference of no deal over a bad deal and that's where we're at today.

[SunsetZed]

Helicopter123 said:

Tuna said:

GT119 said:

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

Are you saying that Boris is committed only to leaving with No Deal?

If these guys were serious about the state of the country, they'd be discussing how we could get to the best arrangement with the EU. Resigning to undermine any attempts at negotiation before the next PM is even selected speaks volumes to me.

My understanding is that to serve in a Boris cabinet, Ministers will need to commit to support leaving without a deal on 31st October.

This is why a number of senior figures look set to resign as they feel unable to make that commitment.

I'm sure they will be supportive of a sensible deal from the back benches though.

Where is this sensible deal you talk of? I hear (from EU sources) that the withdrawal agreement is not open for further discussion.

[Fittster]

Can those that bang on about the manifesto explain if by not imposing a “dementia tax” on the UK the conservative party are a bunch of traitors?

[anonymous-user]

Fittster said:

Can those that bang on about the manifesto explain if by not imposing a “dementia tax” on the UK the conservative party are a bunch of traitors?

You’ll have to explain that one more clearly I’m afraid.

[Helicopter123]

SunsetZed said:

Helicopter123 said:

Tuna said:

GT119 said:

Tuna said:

Frankly, resigning at the prospect of having to do what your manifesto said you'd do pretty much sums up the idiocy of this government.

Are you saying that the manifesto clearly states that we will leave without a deal?

Are you saying that Boris is committed only to leaving with No Deal?

If these guys were serious about the state of the country, they'd be discussing how we could get to the best arrangement with the EU. Resigning to undermine any attempts at negotiation before the next PM is even selected speaks volumes to me.

My understanding is that to serve in a Boris cabinet, Ministers will need to commit to support leaving without a deal on 31st October.

This is why a number of senior figures look set to resign as they feel unable to make that commitment.

I'm sure they will be supportive of a sensible deal from the back benches though.

Where is this sensible deal you talk of? I hear (from EU sources) that the withdrawal agreement is not open for further discussion.

The one Boris has promised to negotiate with the EU ahead of 31st October.

I don't know how he plans to do this, or what it will include.