How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)
Discussion
ClaphamGT3 said:
Let’s set this out really clearly. In the run-up to the referendum the remain campaign said that securing a deal with the EU would be difficult, time consuming and couldn’t be guaranteed. The leave campaign said that it would be quick and easy and that, in any event, the risks of leaving without a deal were being overstated. It is those who spoke for remain who are being proved right and it is those who voted for remain who are being proved to be the more responsible voters.
I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
It's a nice comfort blanket, I'm sure, but the notion that the majority of voters rejected the self-evident lovely status quo in favour of 'burning their own house down' because of untruths peddled by liars and charlatans is hilarious.I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
Remain's whole strategy revolved around liars and charlatans peddling FUD untruths. They had every possible advantage going, and still couldn't convince the easily led that not making a drastic change was the better option. How on earth do you square that with the rubbish written above?
Elysium said:
I'm not having a meltdown and I am certainly not 'blinded by ire'.
I post here because I enjoy a good argument, although sadly I do not always get one. Unfortunately, there are a fair number of posters on here who struggle with reasoned debate.
I dont think Brexit will be a disaster, but I can't see where it will bring us any upside either. To me, it seems like an utterly pointless act of self harm. The definition of a phyrric victory. I also agree with your assessment that some will be affected worse than others. In fact, I will also be relatively insulated from the downsides.
My specific beef with no-deal is that it is entirely unnecessary and effectively an admission of failure. Failure to have a vision for what we want from Brexit and confirmation of the incompetency of our political leaders.
I accused you of moaning, because of your apparent delight in the potential misfortune of others. Given that no-deal is a particularly naff way to deliver Brexit a bigger man might have more empathy for those people who struggle to 'get on board'. Crowing at other peoples concern or misfortunate is not a great trait.
It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.I post here because I enjoy a good argument, although sadly I do not always get one. Unfortunately, there are a fair number of posters on here who struggle with reasoned debate.
I dont think Brexit will be a disaster, but I can't see where it will bring us any upside either. To me, it seems like an utterly pointless act of self harm. The definition of a phyrric victory. I also agree with your assessment that some will be affected worse than others. In fact, I will also be relatively insulated from the downsides.
My specific beef with no-deal is that it is entirely unnecessary and effectively an admission of failure. Failure to have a vision for what we want from Brexit and confirmation of the incompetency of our political leaders.
I accused you of moaning, because of your apparent delight in the potential misfortune of others. Given that no-deal is a particularly naff way to deliver Brexit a bigger man might have more empathy for those people who struggle to 'get on board'. Crowing at other peoples concern or misfortunate is not a great trait.
That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
DeepEnd said:
State of this post.
It is banjoboy and Clapham amongst others who are talking reasoned common sense.
These “winners” are certainly angry. Perhaps they are angry as they can’t quite put their finger on what they’ve won. The destruction of parliamentary sovereignty seems on the cards today, though that could just be a Cummings “make us look serious to the foreigners” stunt.
Well at least you've admitted your post is a state, remoaners new buzzword, but you seem to haveIt is banjoboy and Clapham amongst others who are talking reasoned common sense.
These “winners” are certainly angry. Perhaps they are angry as they can’t quite put their finger on what they’ve won. The destruction of parliamentary sovereignty seems on the cards today, though that could just be a Cummings “make us look serious to the foreigners” stunt.
mislaid the word "Johnny" from the description in the remoaner phrase book of describing foreigners
.
Should I put that down to exhaustion brought on by your running errands for RR?
AJL308 said:
It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.
That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
I guess a man who takes the time to update his personal profile on a car forum with political statements as opposed to anything about cars feels pretty strongly about the subject.That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
One of the stranger things I have seen on PH as it inexorably moves towards becoming Mumsnet for the disenfranchised middling British male
AJL308 said:
It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.
That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
There was never any risk of us losing our parliamentary sovereignty.That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
What an unfortunately ill-informed reason to vote leave.
gooner1 said:
DeepEnd said:
State of this post.
It is banjoboy and Clapham amongst others who are talking reasoned common sense.
These “winners” are certainly angry. Perhaps they are angry as they can’t quite put their finger on what they’ve won. The destruction of parliamentary sovereignty seems on the cards today, though that could just be a Cummings “make us look serious to the foreigners” stunt.
Well at least you've admitted your post is a state, remoaners new buzzword, but you seem to haveIt is banjoboy and Clapham amongst others who are talking reasoned common sense.
These “winners” are certainly angry. Perhaps they are angry as they can’t quite put their finger on what they’ve won. The destruction of parliamentary sovereignty seems on the cards today, though that could just be a Cummings “make us look serious to the foreigners” stunt.
mislaid the word "Johnny" from the description in the remoaner phrase book of describing foreigners
.
Should I put that down to exhaustion brought on by your running errands for RR?
DeepEnd said:
AJL308 said:
It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.
That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
There was never any risk of us losing our parliamentary sovereignty.That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
What an unfortunately ill-informed reason to vote leave.
Brooking10 said:
AJL308 said:
It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.
That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
I guess a man who takes the time to update his personal profile on a car forum with political statements as opposed to anything about cars feels pretty strongly about the subject.That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
One of the stranger things I have seen on PH as it inexorably moves towards becoming Mumsnet for the disenfranchised middling British male
crankedup said:
DeepEnd said:
AJL308 said:
It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.
That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
There was never any risk of us losing our parliamentary sovereignty.That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
What an unfortunately ill-informed reason to vote leave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3XZJ4znl00
would of passed by the multiple named poster, this latest reincarnation being probably the fourth.
crankedup said:
Low bar there, try keeping to the issue.
Fair enough.Personally It’s a telling side point about what’s going on here and shows just how divisive this issue has become.
It’s a strange day when one’s user profile on the UK’s (world’s ?) best online car community becomes a political statement.
don'tbesilly said:
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3XZJ4znl00
would of passed by the multiple named poster, this latest reincarnation being probably the fourth.
Were any of the previous names banned, or is it a case of swapping usernames?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3XZJ4znl00
would of passed by the multiple named poster, this latest reincarnation being probably the fourth.
Good clip btw, strange how some can seem to disregard it.
crankedup said:
Brooking10 said:
AJL308 said:
It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.
That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
I guess a man who takes the time to update his personal profile on a car forum with political statements as opposed to anything about cars feels pretty strongly about the subject.That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.
One of the stranger things I have seen on PH as it inexorably moves towards becoming Mumsnet for the disenfranchised middling British male
Some are even demanding information about friends and relatives, so you can see why some value their anonymity!
Brooking10 said:
I’m struggling with you how can’t (or more probably won’t) comprehend the underlying point Banjo is making here and resorting to triumphalist playground talk.
There’s no mandate for No Deal because thanks to idiot Cameron there’s no mandate for any structure of departure merely the overarching concept of exit itself.
That we voted to leave is the simplest of truisms.
Everything thereafter is speculation, preference, and non-ratified assumption.
Reducing it to its very simplest form - we voted to make a declaration under Article 50. Article 50 was freely available for everyone to read and it is plainly obvious that the precise, specific and individual effects and consequences of making such a declaration under that Article were unknowable at the time. In exactly the same way that the precise, specific and individual consequences of voting to make make a declaration under the Article. If anyone wasn't happy about the "unknowns" of voting Leave then they could simply have voted the other way. There’s no mandate for No Deal because thanks to idiot Cameron there’s no mandate for any structure of departure merely the overarching concept of exit itself.
That we voted to leave is the simplest of truisms.
Everything thereafter is speculation, preference, and non-ratified assumption.
We voted to make the declaration. To argue that that vote did NOT give a mandate for the reasonably expected consequences (specifically knowable or not) of that declaration is f
kwittery of the highest order. Leaving without a withdrawal agreement was a reasonable foreseeable consequence of voting Leave. That is plainly obvious from a reading of Article 50 and anyone who is even basically literate can see that. ClaphamGT3 said:
Let’s set this out really clearly. In the run-up to the referendum the remain campaign said that securing a deal with the EU would be difficult, time consuming and couldn’t be guaranteed. The leave campaign said that it would be quick and easy and that, in any event, the risks of leaving without a deal were being overstated. It is those who spoke for remain who are being proved right and it is those who voted for remain who are being proved to be the more responsible voters.
I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
No, they said it "should" be. Subtly but very important distinction.I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
don'tbesilly said:
I'm not sure whether people should be flattered or alarmed by the stalking nature of some on here.
Some are even demanding information about friends and relatives, so you can see why some value their anonymity!
That you can equate the fact that users have a very public profile we all choose to fill out or not with stalking is absurd.Some are even demanding information about friends and relatives, so you can see why some value their anonymity!
Overlay that with the fact that in this instance user has chosen to use the notes section to very deliberately convey their political perspective and your implication is further exposed as utter b
ks I’m afraid. This has nothing to do with anonymity or any desire to remove that or nonsense “demanding details about friends and relatives”
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 25th August 12:38
ClaphamGT3 said:
Let’s set this out really clearly. In the run-up to the referendum the remain campaign said that securing a deal with the EU would be difficult, time consuming and couldn’t be guaranteed. The leave campaign said that it would be quick and easy and that, in any event, the risks of leaving without a deal were being overstated. It is those who spoke for remain who are being proved right and it is those who voted for remain who are being proved to be the more responsible voters.
I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
No, they said it "should" be. Subtle but very important distinction.I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
AJL308 said:
Reducing it to its very simplest form - we voted to make a declaration under Article 50. Article 50 was freely available for everyone to read and it is plainly obvious that the precise, specific and individual effects and consequences of making such a declaration under that Article were unknowable at the time. In exactly the same way that the precise, specific and individual consequences of voting to make make a declaration under the Article. If anyone wasn't happy about the "unknowns" of voting Leave then they could simply have voted the other way.
We voted to make the declaration. To argue that that vote did NOT give a mandate for the reasonably expected consequences (specifically knowable or not) of that declaration is fkwittery of the highest order. Leaving without a withdrawal agreement was a reasonable foreseeable consequence of voting Leave. That is plainly obvious from a reading of Article 50 and anyone who is even basically literate can see that.
Except that is not what's being argued. At least not by me. If you are going to weigh in unsolicited, it would really be for the best if you tried to grasp the nuance of the argument or at the very least understand it & not keep hammering the same wrong nail, like Otis there.We voted to make the declaration. To argue that that vote did NOT give a mandate for the reasonably expected consequences (specifically knowable or not) of that declaration is f
kwittery of the highest order. Leaving without a withdrawal agreement was a reasonable foreseeable consequence of voting Leave. That is plainly obvious from a reading of Article 50 and anyone who is even basically literate can see that. You really can't beat leavers for trying to nudge a clear point in a different direction. Absolute masters of it.
AJL308 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Let’s set this out really clearly. In the run-up to the referendum the remain campaign said that securing a deal with the EU would be difficult, time consuming and couldn’t be guaranteed. The leave campaign said that it would be quick and easy and that, in any event, the risks of leaving without a deal were being overstated. It is those who spoke for remain who are being proved right and it is those who voted for remain who are being proved to be the more responsible voters.
I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
No, they said it "should" be. Subtle but very important distinction.I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.
gooner1 said:
don'tbesilly said:
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3XZJ4znl00
would of passed by the multiple named poster, this latest reincarnation being probably the fourth.
Were any of the previous names banned, or is it a case of swapping usernames?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3XZJ4znl00
would of passed by the multiple named poster, this latest reincarnation being probably the fourth.
Good clip btw, strange how some can seem to disregard it.
The clip - some would sell their grandparents to stay in the EU at the same time as suggesting Leave voters are zealots, it's hugely entertaining.
Breaking news from Sky:
https://interactive.news.sky.com/2017/brexit-count...
banjowilly said:
Except that is not what's being argued. At least not by me. If you are going to weigh in unsolicited, it would really be for the best if you tried to grasp the nuance of the argument or at the very least understand it & not keep hammering the same wrong nail, like Otis there.
You really can't beat leavers for trying to nudge a clear point in a different direction. Absolute masters of it.
Sorry, but you are just thick. You claimed that no deal was not a possible outcome. There was only two options , we would either leave with a deal or without. You are little more than the most blatant liar on PH. You really can't beat leavers for trying to nudge a clear point in a different direction. Absolute masters of it.
You refused to answer multiple times, now you must be called on it.
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