University bans all beef from campus...........

[andy_s]

Evanivitch said:

Rice growing is definitely a significant source of methane, but not an insurmountable challenge. Infact, without even realising it Chinese farmers have already greatly reduced their methane emissions by changing their flood/drain cycles. If this is represented across all regions we will see a significant drop. Some side effects of this are known but research continues.


Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

Doesn't burning methane produce CO2?

[Leithen]

Evanivitch said:

Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

This has been done in a large way in Germany recently - Munich IIRC.

[turbobloke]

andy_s said:

Evanivitch said:

Rice growing is definitely a significant source of methane, but not an insurmountable challenge. Infact, without even realising it Chinese farmers have already greatly reduced their methane emissions by changing their flood/drain cycles. If this is represented across all regions we will see a significant drop. Some side effects of this are known but research continues.


Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

Doesn't burning methane produce CO2?

Why yes but this is biomethane pre-approved by green people so it produces friendly biocarbon dioxide CO2 not evil C666O2

[glazbagun]

andy_s said:

Evanivitch said:

Rice growing is definitely a significant source of methane, but not an insurmountable challenge. Infact, without even realising it Chinese farmers have already greatly reduced their methane emissions by changing their flood/drain cycles. If this is represented across all regions we will see a significant drop. Some side effects of this are known but research continues.


Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

Doesn't burning methane produce CO2?

Yes, but converted from biowaste that's going to degrade anyway. CO2 is a less potent greenhouse gas than methane, so still an improvement from that standpoint.

The plant grows in the sun, pulling carbon from the atmosphere to grow. It then dies and gives it back up when it rots. So it releases carbon which was itself part of the air only a few years ago, unlike burning coal/oil which is digging up a plant/animal that's been long buried and releasing buried carbon back into the environment as CO2.

[turbobloke]

glazbagun said:

andy_s said:

Evanivitch said:

Rice growing is definitely a significant source of methane, but not an insurmountable challenge. Infact, without even realising it Chinese farmers have already greatly reduced their methane emissions by changing their flood/drain cycles. If this is represented across all regions we will see a significant drop. Some side effects of this are known but research continues.


Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

Doesn't burning methane produce CO2?

Yes, but converted from biowaste that's going to degrade anyway. CO2 is a less potent greenhouse gas than methane, so still an improvement from that standpoint.

The plant grows in the sun, pulling carbon from the atmosphere to grow. It then dies and gives it back up when it rots. So it releases carbon which was itself part of the air only a few years ago, unlike burning coal/oil which is digging up a plant/animal that's been long buried and releasing buried carbon back into the environment as CO2.

Which is greening the earth and increasing crop yields.

No credible empirical data says it's causing anything else.



Apart from some natural El Nino events warming the atmosphere from heat in the ocean (the three main temperature peaks) where is the invisible signal? It's currently as scarily dangerously hot as it was back in 1988, over thirty years ago, how much should we panic and how soon do we need to go vegan?

[Evanivitch]

turbobloke said:

andy_s said:

Evanivitch said:

Rice growing is definitely a significant source of methane, but not an insurmountable challenge. Infact, without even realising it Chinese farmers have already greatly reduced their methane emissions by changing their flood/drain cycles. If this is represented across all regions we will see a significant drop. Some side effects of this are known but research continues.


Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

Doesn't burning methane produce CO2?

Why yes but this is biomethane pre-approved by green people so it produces friendly biocarbon dioxide CO2 not evil C666O2

Would you rather landfill? Or should we fire it into space?

[turbobloke]

Evanivitch said:

turbobloke said:

andy_s said:

Evanivitch said:

Rice growing is definitely a significant source of methane, but not an insurmountable challenge. Infact, without even realising it Chinese farmers have already greatly reduced their methane emissions by changing their flood/drain cycles. If this is represented across all regions we will see a significant drop. Some side effects of this are known but research continues.


Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

Doesn't burning methane produce CO2?

Why yes but this is biomethane pre-approved by green people so it produces friendly biocarbon dioxide CO2 not evil C666O2

Would you rather landfill? Or should we fire it into space?

Why not put waste in ships as ballast and ship it somewhere else, it was China who said no to this practice after a lot of 'carbon ballast' came off the UK's carbon books, UK plc was smiling all the way to Al Gore's Carbon Credit Bazaar figuratively speaking, so given our wise overlords can stomach it, find somewhere else.

Not that I'd advocate it, but environmentally friendly politicians think it's OK. People are merely pointing out the expected hypocrisy and self-contradictions in what passes as green 'thinking'.

Meanwhile I'll take the occasional burger - without loud hysterics or even silent hand-wringing.

[Evanivitch]

turbobloke said:

Evanivitch said:

turbobloke said:

andy_s said:

Evanivitch said:

Rice growing is definitely a significant source of methane, but not an insurmountable challenge. Infact, without even realising it Chinese farmers have already greatly reduced their methane emissions by changing their flood/drain cycles. If this is represented across all regions we will see a significant drop. Some side effects of this are known but research continues.


Bridgend Council have an energy from bio-waste facility that takes in food waste from all across south Wales (food waste bins are widely used in Wales, but not in North of England). This uses anaerobic digesters to produce methane which is burned and energy returned to the grid. In future we may see biogas used in the grid but for now it's extremely limited and infrastructure limited.

Doesn't burning methane produce CO2?

Why yes but this is biomethane pre-approved by green people so it produces friendly biocarbon dioxide CO2 not evil C666O2

Would you rather landfill? Or should we fire it into space?

Why not put waste in ships as ballast and ship it somewhere else, it was China who said no to this practice after a lot of 'carbon ballast' came off the UK's carbon books, UK plc was smiling all the way to Al Gore's Carbon Credit Bazaar figuratively speaking, so given our wise overlords can stomach it, find somewhere else.

Not that I'd advocate it, but environmentally friendly politicians think it's OK. People are merely pointing out the expected hypocrisy and self-contradictions in what passes as green 'thinking'.

Meanwhile I'll take the occasional burger - without loud hysterics or even silent hand-wringing.

You don't half talk crap!

What's the issue with sending material back to China that will eventually become the very products they ship to us? That's how trade routes have worked for years. The system's failings (poor quality recycling with no processing and often high levels of contamination) doesn't make the whole principle of recycling void.

But remind me again when we've ever sent food waste abroad?

[Mr Whippy]

glazbagun said:

Mr Whippy said:

Unless you’re burning carbon from fossil fuels, isn’t the carbon cycle wrt animals kinda ‘baked in’ now any way?

It’s not like we’re somehow making more carbon atoms and co2 molecules.

What is out there already is irrelevant.

Same with water. Who cares if they ‘use’ twice as much or whatever to make beef?
If it’s raining all the time who cares? They just borrow water between the grass and the rivers/aquifers their piss runs into.

In a closed system, is counting carbon and water important?

The problem with water isn't that it'll one day run out if you use too much-like you say, it recycles itself. But rather there is a limit to how much fresh water can be supplied to a given area through irrigation and plumbing and rainfall, and how quickly it regenerates itself. (like how England has hosepipe bans not because the rain will run out, but because of short-term water levels)

So growing a certain crop which requires a lot of water puts a strain on the infrastructure. Growing a crop with water to then feed to an animal which also drinks water requires yet more fresh water. Once you're maxing out your irrigation capacity, that's it. Not really a problem in Scotland, but in dryer climates it is- so if you're maxing out your water supply producing beef, that means you're not making other more water efficient foodstuffs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_scarcity

Yeah I get all that, but thanks for clarifying.

In my context I’m thinking of the usual kinda farm around my way (Yorks Dales non-intensive farmers), where it’s all done from streams/aquifers/grass fed/silage/hay etc.


Unsustainable practices are indeed a bad idea.

Ironically we’ve moved that way to profit a few individuals, not for some general necessity.

It can easily revert to where it needs to be, but we need to reject bargain basement meat prices/welfare standards.

[turbobloke]

Mr Whippy said:

It can easily revert to where it needs to be, but we need to reject bargain basement meat prices/welfare standards.

vCJD

[otolith]

Burning methane from organic matter made recently from atmospheric CO2 is carbon neutral - you’re just putting back what you recently took out.

With an atmospheric life of only 12 years, I’m not sure why methane is seen to be such a problem that we all have to go vegan.

[turbobloke]

otolith said:

Burning methane from organic matter made recently from atmospheric CO2 is carbon neutral - you’re just putting back what you recently took out.

With an atmospheric life of only 12 years, I’m not sure why methane is seen to be such a problem that we all have to go vegan.

Put that way, where's the wider problem? With both methane and carbon dioxide shifts shown in empirical data covering interglacial to decadal timescales to follow (not precede) temperature changes, a far wider loss of panic is in order. Neither gas has climate causality in its armoury. This from a chunk of replicated peer-reviewed science including Monnin et al, Petit et al, Fischer et al, Caillon et al, Mudelsee et al, Humlum et al and still consistent with Yokoyama et al also Parrenin et al despite misleading commentary. Not that this counts for much when 30 years of religious zeal, political opportunism and dumb media are in the opposite corner. More recently, children have been weaponised by The Cause as desperation grows, and beefing about beef is the latest alarm from the bien pensant police.

[vikingaero]

Is this ban just relating to the sale of beef products by the University canteen/cafes/restaurants? What about beef eaten by students in Halls? What if I were to walk on the site whilst eating my Triple Bacon Cheese XL? Are there better things for the University to focus on - like Education?

[Pan Pan Pan]

Brads67 said:

Geffg said:

If we all stop eating beef what happens to all the cows? Will we need to have a cull every so often which is surely a waste or do we just not breed so many but we still need to for milk!
How does not eating cow help the planet? All this climate crap bores me stupid.
Doesn’t the world just have a natural cull every so often with ice age, dinosaurs etc!

They won't be bred for food. No cull required. The not eating meat will extend to dairy and hence dairy cattle.

The problem is methane, which cows put out by the tonne. Cattle are a huge problem re gas emissions.

Since this is related to the man made global warming issue, one has to ask the question, who or what is all this beef being produced for? The bottom line answer, is as usual it is all being done for `man' The very thing the climate protestors are claiming is affecting the climate. and which we are `currently' increasing at net global rates between 287 and 324 thousand per day.
Still at least there is a sort of reciprocal justice, in that students who marched, and protested about MMGW are now having the impact of their protests meted out on themselves. Now all that needs to happen is for students / school children to put their money where their mouth is, and starting walking to and from school / social events instead of being taken there in a collosal four wheel drive sprogpanzers, and giving up their, computers, music festivals, holidays in warm countries, and other resource consuming entertainment devices all to help their cause of reducing resource consumption, and the emissions which result from those damaging activities. It is known that veggies put out quite a lot of methane (at least the ones I know do!) so wont veggie humans just become one of the major methane producing entities of the future? after all we do have quite a lot of humans at the moment.

[Evanivitch]

vikingaero said:

Is this ban just relating to the sale of beef products by the University canteen/cafes/restaurants? What about beef eaten by students in Halls? What if I were to walk on the site whilst eating my Triple Bacon Cheese XL? Are there better things for the University to focus on - like Education?

I know it's hard to click a link to the Torygraph, but that's kind of how this all started...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/12/beef-b...

[Evanivitch]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Now all that needs to happen is for students / school children to put their money where their mouth is, and starting walking to and from school / social events instead of being taken there in a collosal four wheel drive sprogpanzers, and giving up their, computers, music festivals, holidays in warm countries, and other resource consuming entertainment devices all to help their cause of reducing resource consumption, and the emissions which result from those damaging activities. .

Yes of course, it's all down to the children who don't buy cars, don't choose holidays, don't purchase consumer products and don't get a vote to decide how we should all live a lower impact lifestyle...

[turbobloke]

Evanivitch said:

vikingaero said:

Is this ban just relating to the sale of beef products by the University canteen/cafes/restaurants? What about beef eaten by students in Halls? What if I were to walk on the site whilst eating my Triple Bacon Cheese XL? Are there better things for the University to focus on - like Education?

I know it's hard to click a link to the Torygraph, but that's kind of how this all started...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/12/beef-b...

Of course it isn't how it all started.

There was a 'leaked' ho ho ho report from the IPCC high priests basically saying go vegan or the planet gets it as Paris is a dead duck (who knew). That's how it started. All the silliness reported in that DT link above from 12 August was a week or more later, as part of the general silliness that followed. Here's a link to The Guardian from 04 August, it's The Guardian so in your world an apology of sorts is still needed - but for different reasons, not affecting the timeline.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/0...

[Evanivitch]

turbobloke said:

Of course it isn't how it all started.

There was a 'leaked' ho ho ho report from the IPCC basically saying go vegan or the planet gets it as Paris is a dead duck (who knew). That's how it started. All the silliness reported in that DT link above from 12 August was a week or more later, as part of the general silliness that followed. Here's a link to The Guardian from 04 August, it's The Guardian so in your world an apology of sorts is still needed - but for different reasons, not affecting the timeline.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/0...

Turbojoke, did you not notice VikingAero posted questions that were clearly answered in post 1 of this thread if they'd just clicked the link?

[turbobloke]

Evanivitch said:

turbobloke said:

Of course it isn't how it all started.

There was a 'leaked' ho ho ho report from the IPCC basically saying go vegan or the planet gets it as Paris is a dead duck (who knew). That's how it started. All the silliness reported in that DT link above from 12 August was a week or more later, as part of the general silliness that followed. Here's a link to The Guardian from 04 August, it's The Guardian so in your world an apology of sorts is still needed - but for different reasons, not affecting the timeline.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/0...

Turbojoke, did you not notice VikingAero posted questions that were clearly answered in post 1 of this thread if they'd just clicked the link?

Not sure how that relates to my post but the answer is no; at the mo I can only pop in on threads for a short while at a time as business is busyness with all the brexit uncertainty, yes a brexit mention but relevant to my reply. Weekends exist in name only, etc.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Evanivitch said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Now all that needs to happen is for students / school children to put their money where their mouth is, and starting walking to and from school / social events instead of being taken there in a collosal four wheel drive sprogpanzers, and giving up their, computers, music festivals, holidays in warm countries, and other resource consuming entertainment devices all to help their cause of reducing resource consumption, and the emissions which result from those damaging activities. .

Yes of course, it's all down to the children who don't buy cars, don't choose holidays, don't purchase consumer products and don't get a vote to decide how we should all live a lower impact lifestyle...

Well of course they don't buy cars, don't choose holidays, don't purchase consumer products, and don't get a vote because Errr .they are children. and are generally not allowed to. But (and this may come as a surprise to you), they all grow into adults, and then do all the things they cannot do as children. Every new human on the planet, is like those already here is a resource consuming, emissions producing entity, and we are producing up 342 thousand net new humans per day, Even they `they' don't buy consumer products directly, they pester their parents and relatives to buy them, Things, holidays to Disney world etc, (that their parents might not necessarily buy) if they did not have children, so think of them as trainee consumer units undergoing the consumer training / emissions producing process.