I’d be happy with another referendum if,,,,,
Discussion
Canute said:
Error, the majority of the small portion of people who turned out in 2016.... We all know what it would be now.
72% turnout for the referendum compared to 68% for the 2017 general election.I do not understand how you turn that into a small minority of people who actually voted?
The Guardian and BBC believe that may have changed radically by now, the Telegraph and Express believe that there is now a majority to just Leave.with No Deal.
A “once in a lifetime” referendum was taken on 23rd June 2018, abiding by the outcome had been approved beforehand. Dumb as leaving with No Deal may seem, the intransigence of Parliament has made it an inevitable outcome,
rdjohn said:
72% turnout for the referendum compared to 68% for the 2017 general election.
I do not understand how you turn that into a small minority of people who actually voted?
The Guardian and BBC believe that may have changed radically by now, the Telegraph and Express believe that there is now a majority to just Leave.with No Deal.
A “once in a lifetime” referendum was taken on 23rd June 2018, abiding by the outcome had been approved beforehand. Dumb as leaving with No Deal may seem, the intransigence of Parliament has made it an inevitable outcome,
I do not understand how you turn that into a small minority of people who actually voted?
The Guardian and BBC believe that may have changed radically by now, the Telegraph and Express believe that there is now a majority to just Leave.with No Deal.
A “once in a lifetime” referendum was taken on 23rd June 2018, abiding by the outcome had been approved beforehand. Dumb as leaving with No Deal may seem, the intransigence of Parliament has made it an inevitable outcome,
- facepalm
Nickgnome said:
You are a bit late to the party on this one.
Surely if it reasonable to set a lower age limit, then it must be reasonable to have an upper limit and the test would ensure equality.
Your local electorate chose your MP and also if they were bothered contributed to the candidate selection process. The quality of your MP is therefore directly linked to the electorate in your area.
Apologies. I wasn't aware there was a time limit on replies (this one must be properly grinding your gears Surely if it reasonable to set a lower age limit, then it must be reasonable to have an upper limit and the test would ensure equality.
Your local electorate chose your MP and also if they were bothered contributed to the candidate selection process. The quality of your MP is therefore directly linked to the electorate in your area.
).What does your post here have to do with your original IQ/EQ based test and your arbitrary "age 12" limit?
Whilst my local MP isn't the worst of the 650 who sit, your closing assertion is as fundamentally flawed as your proposed "tests" for who should be able to vote.
Pan Pan Pan said:
dandarez said:
Agree, I waited 41 years to vote in the second one.
Got it wrong in 1975, but simply (like the vast majority) got on with life despite oil crisis and other little things like inflation peaking around 26%!
Wonder why we didn't jump up and down like losers do these days?
The only thing is, that in 1975 the EU did not exist, nor would it, for many years to come. Got it wrong in 1975, but simply (like the vast majority) got on with life despite oil crisis and other little things like inflation peaking around 26%!
Wonder why we didn't jump up and down like losers do these days?
How could the people of the UK in 1975 be asked to vote for something that not only, did not exist, but had (then) absolutely no knowledge of what an EU was or what it do / mean for them?
Given all the Hoo Haa, legal challenges, debates in parliament, and in the media etc that has occurred following the only democratic vote the citizens of the UK have ever been given on the UK`s EU membership, I wonder if the UK`s `membership' is even legal?
We could have another referendum as you say in 40 years time, or even another one now, but a remain in the EU option on the ballot paper must categorically not exist. That question has already been asked and answered by the 2016 referendum which has yet to be enacted (as stated by the government in writing that it would be acted upon0..
I didn't. I knew that it didn't exist, as indicated, I was there!
I said I waited 40 yrs to vote in the 2nd Referendum, that's all, nothing else. It is/was the 2nd Referendum.
Perhaps what I should have added, but omitted to say, was that at that time Tony Benn's predictions and his fears of what was to come were absolutely spot on, ie: I got it wrong with my vote and like many then should have listened to him. (I'll add I'm not/never have been a Labour supporter, far from it).
He said that we should now recognise that the European Community (EEC/Common Market whatever you like to call it) had now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
Makes you wonder just where we would be had we listened to the doom-mongers and had joined the Euro?
Just like today, back then the fearmongers/press/tv were hard at work daily, pointing at Benn as the bogeyman.
Tory leader Heath wrote a piece in the Express just prior to the vote: 'Are you voting for a Communist takeover?'
Scare tactic(s) were used then, just like those in 2016 and, sadly, still ongoing.
Even back then much of the talk was all about 'Leaving Europe', just like remainers do so today (I think some of them actually believe that we will leave Europe, not the EU, even knowing that is not possible. I still hear them chanting outside Parliament, and have banners saying they don't want to 'leave Europe'! How can it be when we are an intrinsic part of Europe, luckily in our case to have a bit of water surrounding us.
We wanted to leave the Common Market in 75 (well, I didn't as I'd been brainwashed by the vested interests, like a large number of us younger and even not so young back back then).
In 2016 we (inc. me) voted to leave the EU (the controlling monstrosity in Brussels that has grown out of the EEC - just like Benn had predicted). He was so spot on. He must be turning in his grave today at the antics of his Remainer son.
Many did not like Benn, but how much of that came from the bad press etc he received? He even received death threats just prior to the 75 vote. At least he was true to his word, unlike many politicians today, or even back then. Take Kinnock (who, like Corbyn), at that point in time said implicitly that they also wanted to leave. Kinnock being just one example who see a gravy train and jump aboard at first opportunity.
It's handy to recall the words Benn wrote to each of his constituents prior the 75 Referendum:
'Having campaigned so long to win for you the right to have a referendum I am proud to serve in a government that has promised that the final decision will be made by all the electors through the ballot box. The whole nation, and all political parties, are divided on the Common Market question. We must respect the sincerity of those who take a different view from our own. We should all accept the verdict of the British people whatever it is, and I shall certainly do so.
He was a rare breed of politician. Not my colour, but I wished I'd listened at the time, as do many others I know back then.
I would be happy with another referendum if...
There were four options on the ballot, all legally binding and without recourse for 20 years.
There were four options on the ballot, all legally binding and without recourse for 20 years.
- Leave, no deal, no negotiation, sort out the mess once we are out.
- Leave after negotiating a deal which must be approved by parliament. 2 years to get the deal, otherwise default to no deal as above.
- Revoke article 50 and try to pretend the last 3 years never happened.
- Go all-in with EU membership, adopt the EUR, change road signs to km. Wholeheartedly back the formation of the USofE.
the tribester said:
Why have a referendum at all if you don't act on the result?
Yes, we were assured by the leave campaign that there was no way we'd ever leave with no deal (project fear) and in fact we would leave with a fabulous deal that they'd be falling over themselves to give us because "we hold all the cards".So that's the result they need to deliver. If they can't deliver what was voted for, we need another vote, with the available options laid out, remain or leave with no deal or a crap deal. If we vote to leave then, then the result will have my full support.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
the tribester said:
Why have a referendum at all if you don't act on the result?
Yes, we were assured by the leave campaign that there was no way we'd ever leave with no deal (project fear) and in fact we would leave with a fabulous deal that they'd be falling over themselves to give us because "we hold all the cards".So that's the result they need to deliver. If they can't deliver what was voted for, we need another vote, with the available options laid out, remain or leave with no deal or a crap deal. If we vote to leave then, then the result will have my full support.
What will the other option be?
REALIST123 said:
rdjohn said:
Nickgnome said:
Your local electorate chose your MP and also if they were bothered contributed to the candidate selection process. The quality of your MP is therefore directly linked to the electorate in your area.
I am not sure that the system is a robust as you believe.On C4 News this week, we were introduced to Labour’s shadow Education secretary talking about their brave new world for only allowing students apply to universities, once their grades are known.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Rayner
Virtually every sentence she spoke was grammatically incorrect. Despite having no formal qualifications she is paid £74k, plus expenses, to represent the people of Ashton-U-Lyne. They voted quite heavily in favour of Leave, yet openly stated that she feels free to dismiss their views and support Remain.
70% of MPs represent constituencies that voted Leave. 94% agreed to implement the outcome of the vote. The current wrangling is a massive shame on the mother of all Parliaments.
Should MPs, once elected, do what they want to do or what their constituents want them to do?
80% of MPs chose the former.
93% of voters chose the latter.
Out of touch?
Light years away.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Yes, we were assured by the leave campaign that there was no way we'd ever leave with no deal (project fear) and in fact we would leave with a fabulous deal that they'd be falling over themselves to give us because "we hold all the cards".
So that's the result they need to deliver. If they can't deliver what was voted for, we need another vote, with the available options laid out, remain or leave with no deal or a crap deal. If we vote to leave then, then the result will have my full support.
That ship sailed years ago, because some political exponents voiced sunny uplands doesn’t warrant overturning the referendum result.So that's the result they need to deliver. If they can't deliver what was voted for, we need another vote, with the available options laid out, remain or leave with no deal or a crap deal. If we vote to leave then, then the result will have my full support.
Another way of looking at it is this, if project fear had not been constantly and consistently voiced over the airways during the campaign it is likely vote leave could have been a much larger winning majority.
…. The EU said
1) We can stay on exactly the same terms as before, rebate, veto, no Euro currency, no further integration etc. BUT The UK can drop Freedom of Movement of People for a points style system to be implemented 6 months after this second referendum.
And
2) The ECJ will no longer have authority on UK domestic issues.
It AMZES me that the Remoaners, don't put serious effort into working out WHY people voted to Leave. Find out the big 2 or 3 issues.
Then instead of whinging about a people vote, and going to see Barnier to sabotage our negotiations. They don't try positivity and explain to Brussels that some bespoke tweaks to the EU rules, commensurate with our clout, and the 2nd biggest contributor will stay in the bloc!
Catch more bees with Honey!
1) We can stay on exactly the same terms as before, rebate, veto, no Euro currency, no further integration etc. BUT The UK can drop Freedom of Movement of People for a points style system to be implemented 6 months after this second referendum.
And
2) The ECJ will no longer have authority on UK domestic issues.
It AMZES me that the Remoaners, don't put serious effort into working out WHY people voted to Leave. Find out the big 2 or 3 issues.
Then instead of whinging about a people vote, and going to see Barnier to sabotage our negotiations. They don't try positivity and explain to Brussels that some bespoke tweaks to the EU rules, commensurate with our clout, and the 2nd biggest contributor will stay in the bloc!
Catch more bees with Honey!
Johnnytheboy said:
If the Electoral Commission could devise some transferable vote methodology that meant you choose from Leave, Remain, or May's deal, without splitting the Leave vote.
- Stay In.
- Leave hard
-
Leave on May's deal
- Leave on May's deal or hard brexit if May's deal does not get majority
- Leave on May's deal or Stay if May's deal does not get a majority.
Edited by XJSJohn on Tuesday 20th August 06:25
crankedup said:
That ship sailed years ago, because some political exponents voiced sunny uplands doesn’t warrant overturning the referendum result.
Another way of looking at it is this, if project fear had not been constantly and consistently voiced over the airways during the campaign it is likely vote leave could have been a much larger winning majority.
Or as it turned out, Project Truth. Another way of looking at it is this, if project fear had not been constantly and consistently voiced over the airways during the campaign it is likely vote leave could have been a much larger winning majority.
On the topic of Project Fear, Boris's claim and the leave posters about Turkey joining the EU imminently, where are we on that?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Or as it turned out, Project Truth.
On the topic of Project Fear, Boris's claim and the leave posters about Turkey joining the EU imminently, where are we on that?
I am of the opinion that project fear was well and truely overblown, even the exponents own up to that now. Exaggerating on both sides was plain and evident. None of this alters the fact or position of where we are at the moment of course. On the topic of Project Fear, Boris's claim and the leave posters about Turkey joining the EU imminently, where are we on that?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Or as it turned out, Project Truth.
On the topic of Project Fear, Boris's claim and the leave posters about Turkey joining the EU imminently, where are we on that?
Turkey has not withdra2n its application and continues its effort to meet the criteria set by the EU.On the topic of Project Fear, Boris's claim and the leave posters about Turkey joining the EU imminently, where are we on that?
dandarez said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
dandarez said:
Agree, I waited 41 years to vote in the second one.
Got it wrong in 1975, but simply (like the vast majority) got on with life despite oil crisis and other little things like inflation peaking around 26%!
Wonder why we didn't jump up and down like losers do these days?
The only thing is, that in 1975 the EU did not exist, nor would it, for many years to come. Got it wrong in 1975, but simply (like the vast majority) got on with life despite oil crisis and other little things like inflation peaking around 26%!
Wonder why we didn't jump up and down like losers do these days?
How could the people of the UK in 1975 be asked to vote for something that not only, did not exist, but had (then) absolutely no knowledge of what an EU was or what it do / mean for them?
Given all the Hoo Haa, legal challenges, debates in parliament, and in the media etc that has occurred following the only democratic vote the citizens of the UK have ever been given on the UK`s EU membership, I wonder if the UK`s `membership' is even legal?
We could have another referendum as you say in 40 years time, or even another one now, but a remain in the EU option on the ballot paper must categorically not exist. That question has already been asked and answered by the 2016 referendum which has yet to be enacted (as stated by the government in writing that it would be acted upon0..
I didn't. I knew that it didn't exist, as indicated, I was there!
I said I waited 40 yrs to vote in the 2nd Referendum, that's all, nothing else. It is/was the 2nd Referendum.
Perhaps what I should have added, but omitted to say, was that at that time Tony Benn's predictions and his fears of what was to come were absolutely spot on, ie: I got it wrong with my vote and like many then should have listened to him. (I'll add I'm not/never have been a Labour supporter, far from it).
He said that we should now recognise that the European Community (EEC/Common Market whatever you like to call it) had now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
Makes you wonder just where we would be had we listened to the doom-mongers and had joined the Euro?
Just like today, back then the fearmongers/press/tv were hard at work daily, pointing at Benn as the bogeyman.
Tory leader Heath wrote a piece in the Express just prior to the vote: 'Are you voting for a Communist takeover?'
Scare tactic(s) were used then, just like those in 2016 and, sadly, still ongoing.
Even back then much of the talk was all about 'Leaving Europe', just like remainers do so today (I think some of them actually believe that we will leave Europe, not the EU, even knowing that is not possible. I still hear them chanting outside Parliament, and have banners saying they don't want to 'leave Europe'! How can it be when we are an intrinsic part of Europe, luckily in our case to have a bit of water surrounding us.
We wanted to leave the Common Market in 75 (well, I didn't as I'd been brainwashed by the vested interests, like a large number of us younger and even not so young back back then).
In 2016 we (inc. me) voted to leave the EU (the controlling monstrosity in Brussels that has grown out of the EEC - just like Benn had predicted). He was so spot on. He must be turning in his grave today at the antics of his Remainer son.
Many did not like Benn, but how much of that came from the bad press etc he received? He even received death threats just prior to the 75 vote. At least he was true to his word, unlike many politicians today, or even back then. Take Kinnock (who, like Corbyn), at that point in time said implicitly that they also wanted to leave. Kinnock being just one example who see a gravy train and jump aboard at first opportunity.
It's handy to recall the words Benn wrote to each of his constituents prior the 75 Referendum:
'Having campaigned so long to win for you the right to have a referendum I am proud to serve in a government that has promised that the final decision will be made by all the electors through the ballot box. The whole nation, and all political parties, are divided on the Common Market question. We must respect the sincerity of those who take a different view from our own. We should all accept the verdict of the British people whatever it is, and I shall certainly do so.
He was a rare breed of politician. Not my colour, but I wished I'd listened at the time, as do many others I know back then.
Now, after the ONLY democratic vote the people of the UK have ever been given on the matter of the UK`s membership of the EU, we have had legal challenges, numerous debates in the HoC and HoL,. television debates, heaven only knows how many on line debates, and media coverage. there are those, who want to practice selective democracy, where it was OK for the government to take the UK into the EU, without asking the people if this was what they wanted, but now (apparently) it is not OK for the government to take the UK out of the EU even after being given a clear instruction from the voting public to do so. You know, the kind of `I will pick and choose what votes I will abide by, highly selective version of democracy which seems to be advocated by some of the remainers. As has been said, Politicians and the people for that matter, don't and should not get to choose which votes they will respect and those they don't want to respect.
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