MPs say car ownership not compatible with decarbonisation
Discussion
AstonZagato said:
Rob,
We already had a wall charger when we got our Tesla. I upgraded it to a 3 phase. The 13A socket is, as Tesla says, painfully slow. Most of the time, it would be fine. However, if you come home from a long journey and need to do a decent journey the next day, even a wall charger doesn't give you much room for error.
Yeah I know, I cant see me needing more than my commute after a long trip thoughWe already had a wall charger when we got our Tesla. I upgraded it to a 3 phase. The 13A socket is, as Tesla says, painfully slow. Most of the time, it would be fine. However, if you come home from a long journey and need to do a decent journey the next day, even a wall charger doesn't give you much room for error.
We get a wall charger free, but planning to move house in a few years will fit it then. We have a 50kw fast charger really close if i need it and supercharger in town
Evanivitch said:
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
You're dead right about the weasel words. However at home you'd need much more than just a new mains fuse. You can't charge an EV (a decent one) of 400volt or above on a normal domestic supply in any sane time.
What has the voltage got to do with the rate of charge or the size of battery? Please, educate me.battery capacity determined by VA/kwh - volts and amps drive that formula. Pushing watts into the battery therefore determined by volts and amps, thus to get enough kwh into the battery the number of amps is proportional to voltage. At a fairly low point too many amps melt the power cable therefore you need more volts and fewer amps to avoid it melting. And more cables (3 phase) to get enough of both into the car in a sensible time. I think some of the fast chargers even have cooled cables to reduce overheating during charge cycles.
Frozen-in-the-past said:
I talked to two manufacturers about it (tesla and porsche) and both recommend a light industrial style three phase power feed to the house. That means digging up roads and running new cables from the nearest substation - assuming it's got the capacity in the first place (which it won't when everyone is doing this).
For what purpose? For normal domestic use or because you wanted to be able to charge as fast as physically possible? Because I don't believe any manufacturer normally recommends domestic 3 phase.Just telling you what two manufacturers of EVs told me - if you don't believe me, ask them yourself.
Frozen-in-the-past said:
I know this for a fact (not guesswork) as around here the substation powers a recent housing estate near me all fitted with electric central heating boilers (obviously very green!). And in winter the 'green' electrically heated houses need a giant diesel generator plugged into the substation to meet demand. Because they can't deliver enough power into it on the cabling infrastructure obviously. And when I say giant generator, I mean one the size of an articulated lorry - a great big orange aggreko one - parked there running for months at a time over winter. How green is that! Is that what National grid mean by "advances in technology"?
Great corner case 
You miss the point - the original comment was that in rural areas the government policy is a joke - the above is evidence proving my point. If you prefer to believe the government BS instead that's up to you.
Frozen-in-the-past said:
And to further prove that the National Grid comment is totally wishful thinking, even if the grid did have enough raw power in the first place (it doesn't, massive shortfall on that), it doesn't have the physical power cables in the ground to get it to where it's needed in the quantity it's needed anyway.
Maybe their "advances in future technology" means star-trek style energy transfer beams - so we won't need any new cables?
Prove what? Where's your evidence?Maybe their "advances in future technology" means star-trek style energy transfer beams - so we won't need any new cables?
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
Evanivitch said:
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
You're dead right about the weasel words. However at home you'd need much more than just a new mains fuse. You can't charge an EV (a decent one) of 400volt or above on a normal domestic supply in any sane time.
What has the voltage got to do with the rate of charge or the size of battery? Please, educate me.battery capacity determined by VA/kwh - volts and amps drive that formula. Pushing watts into the battery therefore determined by volts and amps, thus to get enough kwh into the battery the number of amps is proportional to voltage. At a fairly low point too many amps melt the power cable therefore you need more volts and fewer amps to avoid it melting. And more cables (3 phase) to get enough of both into the car in a sensible time. I think some of the fast chargers even have cooled cables to reduce overheating during charge cycles.
Frozen-in-the-past said:
I talked to two manufacturers about it (tesla and porsche) and both recommend a light industrial style three phase power feed to the house. That means digging up roads and running new cables from the nearest substation - assuming it's got the capacity in the first place (which it won't when everyone is doing this).
For what purpose? For normal domestic use or because you wanted to be able to charge as fast as physically possible? Because I don't believe any manufacturer normally recommends domestic 3 phase.Just telling you what two manufacturers of EVs told me - if you don't believe me, ask them yourself.
Frozen-in-the-past said:
I know this for a fact (not guesswork) as around here the substation powers a recent housing estate near me all fitted with electric central heating boilers (obviously very green!). And in winter the 'green' electrically heated houses need a giant diesel generator plugged into the substation to meet demand. Because they can't deliver enough power into it on the cabling infrastructure obviously. And when I say giant generator, I mean one the size of an articulated lorry - a great big orange aggreko one - parked there running for months at a time over winter. How green is that! Is that what National grid mean by "advances in technology"?
Great corner case You miss the point - the original comment was that in rural areas the government policy is a joke - the above is evidence proving my point. If you prefer to believe the government BS instead that's up to you.
Frozen-in-the-past said:
And to further prove that the National Grid comment is totally wishful thinking, even if the grid did have enough raw power in the first place (it doesn't, massive shortfall on that), it doesn't have the physical power cables in the ground to get it to where it's needed in the quantity it's needed anyway.
Maybe their "advances in future technology" means star-trek style energy transfer beams - so we won't need any new cables?
Prove what? Where's your evidence?Maybe their "advances in future technology" means star-trek style energy transfer beams - so we won't need any new cables?
I recall posting content from an NG document in the GB Power thread, at which point one of the renewables fans pointed out that the document had been updated; aye updated that's the word.
RobDickinson said:
average UK commute is 30 miles or less afik and you've chosen a very inefficient car and a short time.
12 hours overnight at 2kw, 24kw most EVs would do 100 miles on that
Firstly it would be 24kWh not ''kw'', secondly ''most EV's'' are lucky if they do 3 miles/kWh so no they wouldn't do 100 miles, ''most EV's'' would do closer to half that. 12 hours overnight at 2kw, 24kw most EVs would do 100 miles on that
Why make s
t up?https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-w...
I don’t understand why this thread has become an electric car vs ICE car thread. The report/article/news claims car ownership is incompatible with future goals, that means all cars regardless of how they’re powered are bad. As for the national grid not being able to keep up with the demand, if true then that might be their next anti-car policy. I.e look at all these evil car drivers causing too much load on the national grid, they must be stopped!
321boost said:
I don’t understand why this thread has become an electric car vs ICE car thread. The report/article/news claims car ownership is incompatible with future goals, that means all cars regardless of how they’re powered are bad. As for the national grid not being able to keep up with the demand, if true then that might be their next anti-car policy. I.e look at all these evil car drivers causing too much load on the national grid, they must be stopped!
Divide and rule has always been a successful ploy, ICE vs EV is just another opportunity.fblm said:
RobDickinson said:
average UK commute is 30 miles or less afik and you've chosen a very inefficient car and a short time.
12 hours overnight at 2kw, 24kw most EVs would do 100 miles on that
Firstly it would be 24kWh not ''kw'', secondly ''most EV's'' are lucky if they do 3 miles/kWh so no they wouldn't do 100 miles, ''most EV's'' would do closer to half that. 12 hours overnight at 2kw, 24kw most EVs would do 100 miles on that
Why make s
t up?https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-w...
The only EVs that wouldnt do around 100 miles on 24kWh are the big heavy SUVs, even those would do around 70, plenty more than the average commute.
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
So, news today, BBC report that our esteemed MPs say that car ownership is not compatible with decarbonisation.
Thoughts please gentlemen and ladies?
I presume they are leading by example and immediately will be having no further personal or company car usage so we can all talk to them in the bus / train queue (is it late or cancelled this time?)...and what will they tax the crap out of next to replace the income?Thoughts please gentlemen and ladies?
fblm said:
RobDickinson said:
average UK commute is 30 miles or less afik and you've chosen a very inefficient car and a short time.
12 hours overnight at 2kw, 24kw most EVs would do 100 miles on that
Firstly it would be 24kWh not ''kw'', secondly ''most EV's'' are lucky if they do 3 miles/kWh so no they wouldn't do 100 miles, ''most EV's'' would do closer to half that. 12 hours overnight at 2kw, 24kw most EVs would do 100 miles on that
Why make s
t up?https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-w...
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
The point is as others have said, the forecast of 'it'll all be fine' by national grid - is based on fantasy - not fact. Again if you prefer to believe in the national grid power fairies making it all better, that's up to you
LMAO, the armchair expert is taken to another level here. Yeah sure, let's ignore the industry experts and instead listen to the armchair expert and turbojoke as professional skeptics.
RobDickinson said:
What car testing is a joke, but ys I should have said kWh.
The only EVs that wouldnt do around 100 miles on 24kWh are the big heavy SUVs, even those would do around 70, plenty more than the average commute.
Those ranges are averages are they? Remarkable. Are they using that well known statistical technique of rounding averages to the nearest 5? I smell BSThe only EVs that wouldnt do around 100 miles on 24kWh are the big heavy SUVs, even those would do around 70, plenty more than the average commute.
fblm said:
RobDickinson said:
What car testing is a joke, but ys I should have said kWh.
The only EVs that wouldnt do around 100 miles on 24kWh are the big heavy SUVs, even those would do around 70, plenty more than the average commute.
Those ranges are averages are they? Remarkable. Are they using that well known statistical technique of rounding averages to the nearest 5? I smell BSThe only EVs that wouldnt do around 100 miles on 24kWh are the big heavy SUVs, even those would do around 70, plenty more than the average commute.
grumbledoak said:
You clearly have no experience of nationalized industry. Well organized it wasn't. They were all used as a piggy bank for money and employment, and a massive voting bloc, and provided just enough "service" to justify their existence. If you scraped and bowed.
Big corporations are no better, because once the government gets involved it becomes subsidy farming and we're back to someone unaccountable providing just enough to justify the subsidies.
The only thing that actually delivers in the real world is private ownership or small companies and real competition. This is what the government should be trying always to create. Instead it is alternately in one of two pockets with much the same crappy outcome for the public.
People note that British privatised railways are sBig corporations are no better, because once the government gets involved it becomes subsidy farming and we're back to someone unaccountable providing just enough to justify the subsidies.
The only thing that actually delivers in the real world is private ownership or small companies and real competition. This is what the government should be trying always to create. Instead it is alternately in one of two pockets with much the same crappy outcome for the public.
t, and think renationalising will fix it. I note that British nationalised railways were also st, and that there are non-st railways abroad both privately and publicly owned. From this I infer that the problem with British railways is the British.
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
and your starter for 10:
- I live in a rural area and the idea of charging stations for EVs is laughable here. I'll still be a joke in 20 years time too.
- public transport is almost non-existent
- without personal transport people will starve or get ill or both as there are few local shops or services
- so the geniuses in Westminster commit us to some ludicrous target while being told we don't have anywhere near the infrastructure
- now the slow learners have caught up and realise that, they want to ban cars to make their policy work (and have us all on public transport or rent shared EVs - neither of which anyone will provide outside of cities as it's massively uneconomic)
- chances of any government pursuing that strategy getting my vote on a scale of 1 ... 10 are .....
The end game imho is autonomous electric vehicles hailed like a cab eg from your mobile. Smallest possible fleet of cars country wide in that scenario.- I live in a rural area and the idea of charging stations for EVs is laughable here. I'll still be a joke in 20 years time too.
- public transport is almost non-existent
- without personal transport people will starve or get ill or both as there are few local shops or services
- so the geniuses in Westminster commit us to some ludicrous target while being told we don't have anywhere near the infrastructure
- now the slow learners have caught up and realise that, they want to ban cars to make their policy work (and have us all on public transport or rent shared EVs - neither of which anyone will provide outside of cities as it's massively uneconomic)
- chances of any government pursuing that strategy getting my vote on a scale of 1 ... 10 are .....
TX.
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