MPs say car ownership not compatible with decarbonisation
Discussion
fblm said:
The only thing EV's change about any of that is they move the exhaust fumes somewhere else. Regarding the price of fuel, most of it is of course tax which government will come after EV's for once they become prevalent.
Of course they move the exhaust fumes elsewhere, but you are also generating mains power at 55% efficiency from natural gas, along with a reasonably high proportion of emission free electricity, compared with burning petrol or diesel at 35% efficiency. The argument that EV's 'simply move the problem elsewhere' is far too simplistic on its own to be of any worth. Evanivitch said:
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I'd love to see the government tracking electrons and telling me which ones I used in my car. Good luck with that.
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They dont need to. Your car can tell them exactly how much it has used. Or they can just track the miles we do. If you think the government will, or can, ignore a collapse in fuel duty revenue (30bn quid) you're deluded. One way or the other we'll be paying that 30bn. I'd love to see the government tracking electrons and telling me which ones I used in my car. Good luck with that.
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Evanivitch said:
Ziplobb said:
You can't
if you live in a rural area its a pipedream to go electric
Why? Infact, I know people find them excellent as a local runabout because the local petrol station has either permanently closed or has peculiar opening hours, so they begrudgingly have to go to town to get fuel, which is a job in itself.if you live in a rural area its a pipedream to go electric
Electric vans and 4x4s (and at the very minimum PHEVs) are coming to market quickly in the next few years. Electric tractors are a reality now, but perhaps not for the same reasons that everyone else needs one.
Only someone living in Islington would ask 'why' - if you lived here you'd know why and how laughable the whole idea is. Earlier posts have said this and said why. Read some of the earlier posts about power supply, charge time, infrastructure, and add that to the near zero public transport, total lack of infrastructure and colossal expense of fixing it in most rural areas (90%+ of the UK is rural). For ***s sake, we've not even got decent mobile coverage or broadband! Get real - electric vehicles in rural areas? dream on.
And whatever moron thinks electric tractors are the answer needs to stop smoking weed and get a cab out of Islington for a day. The tractors around here are the size of a small house and plough fields of hundreds of acres at a time. The tractors in common use around here are 300-700 hp and huge. I've no idea what KWh they'd need on electric and what charging time would be - but it won't be a few minutes on a 13 amp socket I reckon.
Edited by frozen-in-wiltshire on Sunday 1st September 21:36
Edited by frozen-in-wiltshire on Sunday 1st September 21:45
Read the earlier posts, and forecast what happens when everyone in your hamlet/village/town wants to charge at the same time (school run, after work charge for next day clashing with evening cooking demand, overnight clashing with electric heating demand, winter electric demand cannot be fulfilled on existing grid already etc.). Add that to all the rural industrial need (tractors ha ha ha), road freight etc, and then you will see that you won't have power for long.
The point is that the flexibility of private car ownership is impossible to deliver nationally with our power grid infrastructure in any sane timescale at any sane cost. So the only way to do it is to erode or cease private car ownership to the point of near or total non-existence. Think about it.
turbobloke said:
Possibly you won't recall "The Ninth Report - Integrated Transport White Paper" from years gone by, maybe you were too young
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/32/3208.htmInteresting, thanks. Didn't know it went as far back as that, but also not surprised to see it came from the very socially just centre left blairite house.
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
This is exactly the point of my original post - Ziplobb is dead right - the idea of electric vehicles in rural areas is total joke. And will remain so for decades without massive cabling & infrastructure upgrades.
Only someone living in Islington would ask 'why' - if you lived here you'd know why and how laughable the whole idea is. Earlier posts have said this and said why. Read some of the earlier posts about power supply, charge tie, infrastructure, and add that to the near zero public transport, total lack of infrastructure and colossal expense of fixing it in most rural areas (90%+ of the UK is rural). For ***s sake, we've not even got decent mobile coverage or broadband! Get real - electric vehicles in rural areas? dream on.
That's a very negative way of looking at it. Even in rural areas few people are driving 100 miles + per day and rural power networks are in some ways more appropriate for EV charging as many properties have 3 phase electric. A 3 phase welding set (which every farm in the land has) will draw far more power than an EV charger, and nobody gives a second thought about using that at the same time as the workshop compressor (usually also 3 phase) and probably a grinder or 2. Only someone living in Islington would ask 'why' - if you lived here you'd know why and how laughable the whole idea is. Earlier posts have said this and said why. Read some of the earlier posts about power supply, charge tie, infrastructure, and add that to the near zero public transport, total lack of infrastructure and colossal expense of fixing it in most rural areas (90%+ of the UK is rural). For ***s sake, we've not even got decent mobile coverage or broadband! Get real - electric vehicles in rural areas? dream on.
Electric tractors are probably a leap too far for the moment, a combine can get through 800 litres of diesel in a day, which is a lot of energy!
frozen-in-wiltshire said:
Read the earlier posts, and forecast what happens when everyone in your hamlet/village/town wants to charge at the same time (school run, after work charge for next day clashing with evening cooking demand, overnight clashing with electric heating demand, winter electric demand cannot be fulfilled on existing grid already etc.). Add that to all the rural industrial need (tractors ha ha ha), road freight etc, and then you will see that you won't have power for long.
7kW will be fine. I would not expect my neighbours pulling that to be a problem.Condi said:
A 3 phase welding set (which every farm in the land has) will draw far more power than an EV charger, and nobody gives a second thought about using that at the same time as the workshop compressor (usually also 3 phase) and probably a grinder or 2.
Are they welding for several hours at a time, every night?Condi said:
If I could summon an electric car to be at my house whenever needed and at a suitable price, which would then let me sit in the back and get me from A-B it would be a dream.
Lets face it, 99% of time driving is tedious, boring and an inconvenience. The only reason people do it is because the alternative (public transport) is even more inconvenient.
The future will hopefully be a time where we don't need to own a car, but can use one cheaply and then let someone else use it. There is little point owning an everyday car which sits stationary for 23 hours out of 24.
I can't think of any anything worse. You think people will be quite happy to share some random vehicle driving from place to place that all sorts of unknown fLets face it, 99% of time driving is tedious, boring and an inconvenience. The only reason people do it is because the alternative (public transport) is even more inconvenient.
The future will hopefully be a time where we don't need to own a car, but can use one cheaply and then let someone else use it. There is little point owning an everyday car which sits stationary for 23 hours out of 24.
kwits have used throughout the day? Even in 2019 people can't even be arsed to put rubbish in a bin or take a trolley back to the trolley "cage" imagine how they will treat a car that they don't own!TX.
deckster said:
Listen to yourself. If air quality is better, it's sure as hell not because people like you stick their fingers in their ears and say "la la la can't hear you it's all perfect in my world". It's because the government acknowledge that there is a problem and legislate to make things better. Do you think they passed the Clean Air Act for fun?
BTW: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=uk+pollution+deaths
calm down and read what i wrote. we are rapidly approaching the point where it would be hard to get air quality much better in cities, a bit like road accident prevention, no matter what we do it won't reach zero without banning things people won't accept being banned.BTW: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=uk+pollution+deaths
air quality in the home appears to be a bigger issue, especially for asthma sufferers.
the only directly attributable death i can find linked with air quality is this one
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-446... and while it is an absolute tragedy, i am not sure the evidence is strong enough to make the claim contained in the article as it appears due to the number of attacks the poor kid suffered she had a particularly severe form of the disease.
Agammemnon said:
Condi said:
A 3 phase welding set (which every farm in the land has) will draw far more power than an EV charger, and nobody gives a second thought about using that at the same time as the workshop compressor (usually also 3 phase) and probably a grinder or 2.
Are they welding for several hours at a time, every night?frozen-in-wiltshire said:
This is exactly the point of my original post - Ziplobb is dead right - the idea of electric vehicles in rural areas is total joke. And will remain so for decades without massive cabling & infrastructure upgrades.
Only someone living in Islington would ask 'why' - if you lived here you'd know why and how laughable the whole idea is. Earlier posts have said this and said why. Read some of the earlier posts about power supply, charge time, infrastructure, and add that to the near zero public transport, total lack of infrastructure and colossal expense of fixing it in most rural areas (90%+ of the UK is rural). For ***s sake, we've not even got decent mobile coverage or broadband! Get real - electric vehicles in rural areas? dream on.
And whatever moron thinks electric tractors are the answer needs to stop smoking weed and get a cab out of Islington for a day. The tractors around here are the size of a small house and plough fields of hundreds of acres at a time. The tractors in common use around here are 300-700 hp and huge. I've no idea what KWh they'd need on electric and what charging time would be - but it won't be a few minutes on a 13 amp socket I reckon.
Gwynedd, Islington, same place?Only someone living in Islington would ask 'why' - if you lived here you'd know why and how laughable the whole idea is. Earlier posts have said this and said why. Read some of the earlier posts about power supply, charge time, infrastructure, and add that to the near zero public transport, total lack of infrastructure and colossal expense of fixing it in most rural areas (90%+ of the UK is rural). For ***s sake, we've not even got decent mobile coverage or broadband! Get real - electric vehicles in rural areas? dream on.
And whatever moron thinks electric tractors are the answer needs to stop smoking weed and get a cab out of Islington for a day. The tractors around here are the size of a small house and plough fields of hundreds of acres at a time. The tractors in common use around here are 300-700 hp and huge. I've no idea what KWh they'd need on electric and what charging time would be - but it won't be a few minutes on a 13 amp socket I reckon.
Edited by frozen-in-wiltshire on Sunday 1st September 21:36
Edited by frozen-in-wiltshire on Sunday 1st September 21:45
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48011957
You sound like a right towny, thinking every farmer lives a day's drive from the market.
Evanivitch said:
Gwynedd, Islington, same place?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48011957
You sound like a right towny, thinking every farmer lives a day's drive from the market.
Harry from EVO now has a Farming channel.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48011957
You sound like a right towny, thinking every farmer lives a day's drive from the market.
Very interesting to watch.
Have to be honest I don't think any battery operated vehicle could replace any tractor / combine plough.
wc98 said:
deckster said:
Listen to yourself. If air quality is better, it's sure as hell not because people like you stick their fingers in their ears and say "la la la can't hear you it's all perfect in my world". It's because the government acknowledge that there is a problem and legislate to make things better. Do you think they passed the Clean Air Act for fun?
BTW: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=uk+pollution+deaths
calm down and read what i wrote. we are rapidly approaching the point where it would be hard to get air quality much better in cities, a bit like road accident prevention, no matter what we do it won't reach zero without banning things people won't accept being banned.BTW: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=uk+pollution+deaths
air quality in the home appears to be a bigger issue, especially for asthma sufferers.
the only directly attributable death i can find linked with air quality is this one
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-446... and while it is an absolute tragedy, i am not sure the evidence is strong enough to make the claim contained in the article as it appears due to the number of attacks the poor kid suffered she had a particularly severe form of the disease.
And that starts in 1970, 14 years after the clean air act eliminated the coal fired smogs that were really harmful. Goodness knows what those figures would look like if available from those days.
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