Brexit, what have you learnt
Discussion
loafer123 said:
I firmly believe that the EU is not representing Europe, it is representing itself, and that that will be its eventual downfall.
Before the referendum, it was a pretty much universal opinion expressed by our German contacts that:- the UK would be insane to Leave
- a close result in favour of Remain could be the impetus for EU structural reforms
They wanted it close.
There is a demand for change in the EU in other EU countries, there's a demand for change in the EU amongst those that support it.
Travelling the EU I've seen where it's investments have been very significant in improving prospects for all of us. Taking on the eastern accession states it's brought them out of the post-communist era into relative prosperity. The Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, alongside Slovenia, are about to go revenue positive and become net contributors. They're growing markets for UK goods and services. Investment in road and rail infrastructure makes it easier for UK good to cross countries. Poland is still a bit of a gold sink, it's struggling - but it came out of communism in worst a worse state than most and it's a long term project but when it turns around the payback will be there. Southern Europe, always a special case - but its doing a grand job as the UK's middle class care home in the sun. I'm unashamedly pro-European. But I'm not blind to it's faults. It's a long term commitment, and just looking at net contributions ignores the trade that's generated as a result of membership.
PositronicRay said:
A tolerable deal is better than no deal, or remain.
Apparantly.
So it would seem.Apparantly.
Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
digimeistter said:
PositronicRay said:
A tolerable deal is better than no deal, or remain.
Apparantly.
So it would seem.Apparantly.
Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
blueg33 said:
digimeistter said:
PositronicRay said:
A tolerable deal is better than no deal, or remain.
Apparantly.
So it would seem.Apparantly.
Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
blueg33 said:
digimeistter said:
PositronicRay said:
A tolerable deal is better than no deal, or remain.
Apparantly.
So it would seem.Apparantly.
Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
Total arrogance is never a good trait in any negotiation.
digimeistter said:
So it would seem.
Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
You've not been paying attention, have you?Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
For a Deal to be concluded before 31st October:
- it has to be agreed by the negotiating teams
- a Bill has to be accepted by the House of Commons (2 readings, plus committee in chamber)
- a Bill has to accepted by the House of Lords (2 readings)
- meanwhile all 27 EU countries also need to agree the Deal
- the European Parliament needs to agree the Deal
And that's just the short version, if I can find the full version I'll post the link. The deadline of midnight tonight has been given to make sure there's enough time for all this admin to be completed.
if it's not agreed by midnight, then they've got sufficient time to agree the alternative outcome.
Bill said:
PositronicRay said:
A desperate, cobbled together pile of old b
ks is better than no deal, or remain.
Apparantly.
EFA.ks is better than no deal, or remain. Apparantly.
What a farce.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
GSalt said:
digimeistter said:
So it would seem.
Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
You've not been paying attention, have you?Even now the EU are demanding the proposal must be concluded tonight or it will be too late!
Strangely, I find this suspicious.
They do seem to love their deadlines, when it suits them.
For a Deal to be concluded before 31st October:
- it has to be agreed by the negotiating teams
- a Bill has to be accepted by the House of Commons (2 readings, plus committee in chamber)
- a Bill has to accepted by the House of Lords (2 readings)
- meanwhile all 27 EU countries also need to agree the Deal
- the European Parliament needs to agree the Deal
And that's just the short version, if I can find the full version I'll post the link. The deadline of midnight tonight has been given to make sure there's enough time for all this admin to be completed.
if it's not agreed by midnight, then they've got sufficient time to agree the alternative outcome.
DeepEnd said:
It is rather perplexing to hear all the flag waving and excitement at the coming maybe deal.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Because the Government hasn't been playing the brinkmanship game with the EU, it's been playing it with the swivel-eyed fringe of its own party.Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
GSalt said:
DeepEnd said:
It is rather perplexing to hear all the flag waving and excitement at the coming maybe deal.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Because the Government hasn't been playing the brinkmanship game with the EU, it's been playing it with the swivel-eyed fringe of its own party.Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
GSalt said:
I disagree. If the UK had thought through what it wanted, balanced that with a reasonable consideration of what the EU could accept, then a similar proposal could have been presented and finalised through a process of negotiation. Something similar to the first point, on citizens' rights, was mooted at one point - but shot down, again by May, with the insistence that FOM would end..
I'm not sure how to take this - halfway through the negotiations, May suddenly appeared with a deal that the EU immediately accepted and has, for the eighteen months or so refused to budge from under any circumstances. That's not exactly "not knowing what we wanted" - the deal was on the table defining what May wanted, and accepted by the EU.The subsequent deadlock was maintained by May and the EU between them refusing to in any way move from that agreement. It's unusual - if not unique - for a negotiation with the EU to reach a conclusion early, let alone in half the time allotted. Yet the two main negotiators at the table maintained that position right up until May was rightly removed.
It's slightly disingenuous (only slightly - there is a lot of infighting) to suggest the fault lies with the UK, when both of the leaders of the negotiations had apparently independently decided on an outcome that could not be delivered.
Tuna said:
I'm not sure how to take this - halfway through the negotiations, May suddenly appeared with a deal that the EU immediately accepted and has, for the eighteen months or so refused to budge from under any circumstances. That's not exactly "not knowing what we wanted" - the deal was on the table defining what May wanted, and accepted by the EU.
The subsequent deadlock was maintained by May and the EU between them refusing to in any way move from that agreement. It's unusual - if not unique - for a negotiation with the EU to reach a conclusion early, let alone in half the time allotted. Yet the two main negotiators at the table maintained that position right up until May was rightly removed.
It's slightly disingenuous (only slightly - there is a lot of infighting) to suggest the fault lies with the UK, when both of the leaders of the negotiations had apparently independently decided on an outcome that could not be delivered.
I think there's a lot that will come out when (if?) it all ends. I know the EU side of things was allowed to be filmed and documented, and the EU are usually quicker to make information on decision making public.The subsequent deadlock was maintained by May and the EU between them refusing to in any way move from that agreement. It's unusual - if not unique - for a negotiation with the EU to reach a conclusion early, let alone in half the time allotted. Yet the two main negotiators at the table maintained that position right up until May was rightly removed.
It's slightly disingenuous (only slightly - there is a lot of infighting) to suggest the fault lies with the UK, when both of the leaders of the negotiations had apparently independently decided on an outcome that could not be delivered.
May's deal was probably the only option possible within her red lines, and I'm convinced that hindsight will shows these to have been a terrible idea. Moving to a different deal would need a willingness to move on those lines to be signalled by the UK. When Johnson took over he seemed to bluster a lot, but generally just come across as flustered and confused. He took too long to realise that things were serious, and he should have known that time was the resource he had least of.
By tomorrow we'll know if they've bodged something "acceptably tolerable" - doesn't it seem strange that this is the outcome that Rees-Mogg and Francois are suddenly happy to support? - or whether we're moving to a 9-12 month extension with a GE and a possible second referendum before that expires.
Did you see that the Conservatives have already circulated in the last couple of weeks GE campaign leaflets to their activists assuming that Brexit has not happened on 31 Oct in versions blaming Labour and the Brexit Party?
DeepEnd said:
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
We don't know anything at all about the withdrawal agreement yet - and so far all I've read is personal interpretations of what people think Boris will do. Those interpretations are universally coloured by what people think of BoJo himself.Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
As this is just the withdrawal agreement, the devil really is in the details. The best agreement in the world wouldn't look entirely unlike Mays, but would omit the clauses that limited the flexibility in future negotiations.
So of course some Remainers are going to claim it's "Just like May's Deal" (having not seen it yet), because on the surface it will be, in principal, broadly similar.
Until the full agreement has been published, and smarter people than us have had time to pull it apart, I'd hesitate to claim anything (other than that some people will reject it outright 'just because').
Macski said:
It is 3½ since the Brexit referendum and we are constantly told that we now know more then we did back then, so what do you know?
I voted leave but really not sure which politician I could trust to run post Brexit UK, I also know our politicians are not fit for purpose.
For the last thirty years our MPs have run down manufacturing and now they are so concerned about what effect Brexit will have on manufacturing!
Whats the obsessions with manufacturing, it's such a low value industry unless you are doing the very top end which we do already.I voted leave but really not sure which politician I could trust to run post Brexit UK, I also know our politicians are not fit for purpose.
For the last thirty years our MPs have run down manufacturing and now they are so concerned about what effect Brexit will have on manufacturing!
crankedup said:
I am not at all surprised to read this, Politics before industry and people is what drives the E.U.
Finally ,shame it has only taken 3 years to realise this little fact.No amount of german car companies or french cheese makers was ever going to change this fact how ever many times it was trumpeted that they need us more than we need them
DeepEnd said:
Bill said:
PositronicRay said:
A desperate, cobbled together pile of old bks is better than no deal, or remain.
Apparantly.
EFA.ks is better than no deal, or remain. Apparantly.
What a farce.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff