Brexit, what have you learnt
Discussion
citizensm1th said:
crankedup said:
I am not at all surprised to read this, Politics before industry and people is what drives the E.U.
Finally ,shame it has only taken 3 years to realise this little fact.No amount of german car companies or french cheese makers was ever going to change this fact how ever many times it was trumpeted that they need us more than we need them
GSalt said:
I think there's a lot that will come out when (if?) it all ends. I know the EU side of things was allowed to be filmed and documented, and the EU are usually quicker to make information on decision making public.
May's deal was probably the only option possible within her red lines, and I'm convinced that hindsight will shows these to have been a terrible idea. Moving to a different deal would need a willingness to move on those lines to be signalled by the UK. When Johnson took over he seemed to bluster a lot, but generally just come across as flustered and confused. He took too long to realise that things were serious, and he should have known that time was the resource he had least of.
By tomorrow we'll know if they've bodged something "acceptably tolerable" - doesn't it seem strange that this is the outcome that Rees-Mogg and Francois are suddenly happy to support? - or whether we're moving to a 9-12 month extension with a GE and a possible second referendum before that expires.
Did you see that the Conservatives have already circulated in the last couple of weeks GE campaign leaflets to their activists assuming that Brexit has not happened on 31 Oct in versions blaming Labour and the Brexit Party?
The recent BBC docs already shows how shambolic Davis and Raab were - the latter utterly embarrassing in one of his early engagements and way out of his depth.May's deal was probably the only option possible within her red lines, and I'm convinced that hindsight will shows these to have been a terrible idea. Moving to a different deal would need a willingness to move on those lines to be signalled by the UK. When Johnson took over he seemed to bluster a lot, but generally just come across as flustered and confused. He took too long to realise that things were serious, and he should have known that time was the resource he had least of.
By tomorrow we'll know if they've bodged something "acceptably tolerable" - doesn't it seem strange that this is the outcome that Rees-Mogg and Francois are suddenly happy to support? - or whether we're moving to a 9-12 month extension with a GE and a possible second referendum before that expires.
Did you see that the Conservatives have already circulated in the last couple of weeks GE campaign leaflets to their activists assuming that Brexit has not happened on 31 Oct in versions blaming Labour and the Brexit Party?
Whilst it is reported a deal can be done, it is also reported there is a still a way to go. You wonder how fundamental such a difference may be, and where the DUP & NI will end up in all this.
Have you a link for the GE leaflets - interesting that they have been planning something else without a deal. Is this sudden rush for some sort of deal a last minute change of direction for Cummings?
Mogg conceding he may have to eat his words - including waffle about how nourishing that may be - could be an indicator of whether the deal includes some surprising compromises.
Still, if the faithful are told to love the deal by Mogg and Francois - what will the herd do?
Perhaps we can look forward to all leavers agreeing that they voted for "a mediocre deal is better than no deal".
Let's see what the deal holds, but if it's anywhere near as meh as May's deal, fingers crossed you are right about a 9 month extension and 2nd ref.
GSalt said:
I think there's a lot that will come out when (if?) it all ends. I know the EU side of things was allowed to be filmed and documented, and the EU are usually quicker to make information on decision making public.
May's deal was probably the only option possible within her red lines, and I'm convinced that hindsight will shows these to have been a terrible idea.
Again, I'm not sure about this - the EU didn't film, or even minute the meeting between May and Merkel prior to May's deal being revealed. The sudden radio silence at that point is not very reassuring. Then the deal that May revealed crossed a number of her own red lines and ran contrary to the Lancaster House speech that set them out (and was broadly accepted by both sides of the debate).May's deal was probably the only option possible within her red lines, and I'm convinced that hindsight will shows these to have been a terrible idea.
You're right that the negotiations were very badly handled - Ivan Roger's lectures on the subject are informative whichever side of the debate you're on. He's very clear that the big mistake was to allow the EU to dictate the timetable and sequencing, starting with kicking off A50 before plans were prepared. Incompetence or bad faith by our leadership is another question.
GSalt said:
Did you see that the Conservatives have already circulated in the last couple of weeks GE campaign leaflets to their activists assuming that Brexit has not happened on 31 Oct in versions blaming Labour and the Brexit Party?
Rather hard to believe that's not a deliberate leak. Emailed leaflets to activists across the country? Of course they're going to be leaked. Is it an early shot across the bows for the opposition, to increase the pressure when it comes to voting on the deal?crankedup said:
Where did you get your information from regards the proposals being discussed at the moment, any chance of a link?
Well it's either that or the blagger-in-chief who's lost his majority, any hope of control of parliament and who has no mandate has got some major concessions from the EU.I'm betting on rehashed old b
ks, but YMMV. 
GSalt said:
DeepEnd said:
It is rather perplexing to hear all the flag waving and excitement at the coming maybe deal.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Because the Government hasn't been playing the brinkmanship game with the EU, it's been playing it with the swivel-eyed fringe of its own party.Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
DeepEnd said:
Have you a link for the GE leaflets - interesting that they have been planning something else without a deal. Is this sudden rush for some sort of deal a last minute change of direction for Cummings?
They've been all over Twitter all day, but I've found a BBC link:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50029635
Bill said:
crankedup said:
Where did you get your information from regards the proposals being discussed at the moment, any chance of a link?
Well it's either that or the blagger-in-chief who's lost his majority, any hope of control of parliament and who has no mandate has got some major concessions from the EU.I'm betting on rehashed old b
ks, but YMMV. What have I learned?
Not a lot about human behaviour that I didn't know already.
What I have learned over the past 3 years is that it has very little to do with the actual workings of the EU (few had much appreciation of that, or the workings of UK government, at all) . Leaving appears to have meant different things to different people.
I have also learned that hating/detesting the EU is not the polar opposite of wishing to remain in the EU. Some do not appear to appreciate this.
I have also been surprised, over the past 3 years, that all of my friends, the people I associate with locally, all of my extended family (with the exception of my father in law and one of my octagenarian uncles) and a large majority of my colleagues voted to remain in the EU. This set of people covers a wide range of age, education, social class, wealth etc. It is not a "Liberal elite" - whatever they are....
I appreciate that the reverse is true for many people, but I do find it interesting.
It is interesting that somebody's view on the EU question can often be a predictor of their views on quite a range of issues.
Not a lot about human behaviour that I didn't know already.
What I have learned over the past 3 years is that it has very little to do with the actual workings of the EU (few had much appreciation of that, or the workings of UK government, at all) . Leaving appears to have meant different things to different people.
I have also learned that hating/detesting the EU is not the polar opposite of wishing to remain in the EU. Some do not appear to appreciate this.
I have also been surprised, over the past 3 years, that all of my friends, the people I associate with locally, all of my extended family (with the exception of my father in law and one of my octagenarian uncles) and a large majority of my colleagues voted to remain in the EU. This set of people covers a wide range of age, education, social class, wealth etc. It is not a "Liberal elite" - whatever they are....
I appreciate that the reverse is true for many people, but I do find it interesting.
It is interesting that somebody's view on the EU question can often be a predictor of their views on quite a range of issues.
GSalt said:
DeepEnd said:
Have you a link for the GE leaflets - interesting that they have been planning something else without a deal. Is this sudden rush for some sort of deal a last minute change of direction for Cummings?
They've been all over Twitter all day, but I've found a BBC link:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50029635
As for twitter
crankedup said:
GSalt said:
DeepEnd said:
It is rather perplexing to hear all the flag waving and excitement at the coming maybe deal.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Because the Government hasn't been playing the brinkmanship game with the EU, it's been playing it with the swivel-eyed fringe of its own party.Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
crankedup said:
So it’s just another blowhard by remainers, who have thought it. Still waiting for the links to all the bull being spouted by remainers.
It's an opinion. A view on the likelihood of one outcome over another. I have low expectations for BoJo and thus far he hasn't exceeded them, but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised.GSalt said:
crankedup said:
GSalt said:
DeepEnd said:
It is rather perplexing to hear all the flag waving and excitement at the coming maybe deal.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Because the Government hasn't been playing the brinkmanship game with the EU, it's been playing it with the swivel-eyed fringe of its own party.Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Bill said:
crankedup said:
So it’s just another blowhard by remainers, who have thought it. Still waiting for the links to all the bull being spouted by remainers.
It's an opinion. A view on the likelihood of one outcome over another. I have low expectations for BoJo and thus far he hasn't exceeded them, but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised.crankedup said:
GSalt said:
DeepEnd said:
Have you a link for the GE leaflets - interesting that they have been planning something else without a deal. Is this sudden rush for some sort of deal a last minute change of direction for Cummings?
They've been all over Twitter all day, but I've found a BBC link:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50029635
As for twitter
If Cummings is engineering anything, it's perhaps a last minute collapse in negotiations. He may feel that Tory's best chances of securing a solid majority come from getting a GE before any deal is agreed. He may be right. Labour's a hopeless shambles.
Bill said:
crankedup said:
So it’s just another blowhard by remainers, who have thought it. Still waiting for the links to all the bull being spouted by remainers.
It's an opinion. A view on the likelihood of one outcome over another. I have low expectations for BoJo and thus far he hasn't exceeded them, but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised.And yet look how much utter garbage about the various brexit matters is peddled/regurgitated without question:
- The Benn bill being drafted by collaborating evil foreigners.
- May's deal was cooked up in complete secrecy by her and Robbins as a dirty remainer trick, poor Davis etc.
crankedup said:
Fair enough, I am forming an opinion that whatever proposal comes back our rabble that forms the HoC will not vote it through. In which case we head for a GE and that will lead to a ‘no deal’ .
Why would they? If it's just May's WA rehashed they've rejected it already. There's a GE coming so they're not going to vote any old crap through just to get it done. If it's genuinely different then it'll be considered, but again if it's crap it won't wash.All bets are off for the GE imo. I suspect another hung parliament is likely, but who knows?
crankedup said:
GSalt said:
crankedup said:
GSalt said:
DeepEnd said:
It is rather perplexing to hear all the flag waving and excitement at the coming maybe deal.
Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
Because the Government hasn't been playing the brinkmanship game with the EU, it's been playing it with the swivel-eyed fringe of its own party.Having being told May's deal was cretinous only a few months ago, leavers jumped up and down with rage and rolled out their new favourite word - vassal - on a regular basis.
Now they are being told something likely to be rather similar is wonderful and they are trumpeting a magnificent victory over the crumbling & scared EU at 11.59 - which it seems they all knew would roll in all along.
What are folk to make of this odd delusional transformation, and the faithful obedience being shown to their masters who have conducted such a comical volte-face in such a short period?
GSalt said:
They've been all over Twitter all day, but I've found a BBC link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50029635
Thanks. Bit short on detail on what they'll do to "get Brexit done". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50029635
More a focus on the "others probably won't get it done".
What a great reflection of politics 2019. "The other lot are no good, vote for us!"
With a splash of blaming others for the incompetence of the current shambles of a government.
crankedup said:
Fair enough, I am forming an opinion that whatever proposal comes back our rabble that forms the HoC will not vote it through. In which case we head for a GE and that will lead to a ‘no deal’ .
Alternatively it heads to a 2nd ref, then goes to a GE with the brexit question 'answered'.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff