How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 13)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 13)

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loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
DeepEnd said:
loafer123 said:
I’m a Leaver who believes that immigration has added huge value to this country and should continue, but which should be controlled closely by government.

Where do I sit in your binary world?
Do you feel strongly about the need for controlled immigration, or are you relaxed about freedom of movement with the EU?
I want immigration to continue, and be controlled, and therefore not be automatic as it is under free movement of labour in the EU.



DeepEnd

4,240 posts

65 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
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Tuna said:
DeepEnd said:
Tuna said:
Silly claims that Brexit will be either a disaster or softer than the softest puppy (both "wins" for people opposed to it), based on the fear of change.
Again with this "resistance to change" myth. It's presumably thrown around as a mild insult but missing the mark in an amusingly ironic way.
Is there any point, ever, in the last few hundred pages where you have said an element of Brexit would provide a positive outcome? You seem peculiarly resistant to that idea. You have, in the last few pages however said that any changes to GI protection would be bad and implied that if the government fails to deliver change (aka a 'soft brexit'), then the Brexiteers will have failed. You really will argue black is white (wacist!!) if it suits your agenda.
In net terms, no, I forecast only net downsides and a negative economic & reputational impact. I keep asked for examples of benefits and no one here can articulate any with any tangible evidence or monetary predictions.

I haven't said changes to GI would be bad - I've explained why the rules have implications (which the example amusingly led you to say "nevermind champagne and it's really rare isn't it?) and we are likely to maintain them. It's true its another example of why when you get into the realities the divergence benefits are fictional - a theoretical benefit that sounded good as a by line for "take back control".

I do think when all the "benefits" of divergence are weighed up, Brexit will look like the huge net failure it is widely predicted to be by those pesky experts.

You have been free to refute this idea for months with a counter argument with specific benefits and yet refuse to do so. scratchchin



gooner1

10,223 posts

178 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
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Helicopter123 said:
DeepEnd said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Most Brexiteers are not against immigration, they support controlled immigration. You don't seem to understand the distinction between the two.
They still have a fear around immigration which leads to their obsession with it - controlled. legal, illegal or otherwise.

You don't seem able to understand your own fixation - uttering "controlled" in front of immigration doesn't make you any less fanatical about it.
Good post, and a point that many 'concerned about immigration' fail to understand...

It's all just dog-whistle stuff.
Does the EU practice uncontrolled immigration from non EU countries?

DeepEnd

4,240 posts

65 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
DeepEnd said:
loafer123 said:
I’m a Leaver who believes that immigration has added huge value to this country and should continue, but which should be controlled closely by government.

Where do I sit in your binary world?
Do you feel strongly about the need for controlled immigration, or are you relaxed about freedom of movement with the EU?
I want immigration to continue, and be controlled, and therefore not be automatic as it is under free movement of labour in the EU.
Exactly - you have issues with free movement of labour in the EU.

Many people don't care.

Those that do care enough to bang on about it clearly do have an issue with immigration, no matter why you think those concerns are "legitimate".

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
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gooner1 said:
Does the EU practice uncontrolled immigration from non EU countries?
That is not an EU competence, although they pool policy on temporary access in the schengen zone.

gooner1

10,223 posts

178 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
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Does the EU financially award Turkey for allowing people from outside of the EU into it?
Thus taking a perceived or real concern over services , infrastructure away from some EU
member states, or fear of as some like to name it?

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
DeepEnd said:
loafer123 said:
DeepEnd said:
loafer123 said:
I’m a Leaver who believes that immigration has added huge value to this country and should continue, but which should be controlled closely by government.

Where do I sit in your binary world?
Do you feel strongly about the need for controlled immigration, or are you relaxed about freedom of movement with the EU?
I want immigration to continue, and be controlled, and therefore not be automatic as it is under free movement of labour in the EU.
Exactly - you have issues with free movement of labour in the EU.

Many people don't care.

Those that do care enough to bang on about it clearly do have an issue with immigration, no matter why you think those concerns are "legitimate".
I have no problems with free movement of Labour in the EU.

We aren’t going to be in the EU....

DeepEnd

4,240 posts

65 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
gooner1 said:
Does the EU financially award Turkey for allowing people from outside of the EU into it?
Thus taking a perceived or real concern over services , infrastructure away from some EU
member states, or fear of as some like to name it?
You seem fixated with immigration. scratchchinrofl

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
DeepEnd said:
In net terms, no, I forecast only net downsides and a negative economic & reputational impact.

...blah blah blah...
You could have just left it there.. perhaps added "wacists!", just to make it sound more decisive. rofl

stongle

5,910 posts

161 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
DeepEnd said:
In net terms, no, I forecast only net downsides and a negative economic & reputational impact. I keep asked for examples of benefits and no one here can articulate any with any tangible evidence or monetary predictions.

I haven't said changes to GI would be bad - I've explained why the rules have implications (which the example amusingly led you to say "nevermind champagne and it's really rare isn't it?) and we are likely to maintain them. It's true its another example of why when you get into the realities the divergence benefits are fictional - a theoretical benefit that sounded good as a by line for "take back control".

I do think when all the "benefits" of divergence are weighed up, Brexit will look like the huge net failure it is widely predicted to be by those pesky experts.

You have been free to refute this idea for months with a counter argument with specific benefits and yet refuse to do so. scratchchin
It's a good job you are neither an expert, or been able to quantify downside risks. There are loads of benefits, within the last few pages; we've quoted Carney and the Head of a Legal and General talking about benefits of divergence.

Of course, you can constantly display your ignorance or contempt by saying it didn't or hasn't happened; but it has. These experts are constantly aligned AGAINST your point of view - but you claim the contrary. The forecast for PMI data is up from 49.3 to 50.7 (which indicates economic expansion). You claim that you have experts aligned, but when it comes to actual data - its non-existent.

If you view the world entirely through the prism of BREXIT, you will inevitably fail in here (and how you deal with BREXIT "if" you are in business).

It simply doesn't exist in isolation.



gooner1

10,223 posts

178 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
DeepEnd said:
gooner1 said:
Does the EU financially award Turkey for allowing people from outside of the EU into it?
Thus taking a perceived or real concern over services , infrastructure away from some EU
member states, or fear of as some like to name it?
You seem fixated with immigration. scratchchinroflki
Am I supposed to be surprised by your supposition?

Not surprised by your refusal to answer the relevant question though ajd. smile

DeepEnd

4,240 posts

65 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
Carney the expert can be trusted now can he? Too funny.

Still, grateful for the link where he says there is a net economic benefit to Brexit. Surprised that has not been bigger news.


anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
DeepEnd said:
Carney the expert can be trusted now can he? Too funny.

Still, grateful for the link where he says there is a net economic benefit to Brexit. Surprised that has not been bigger news.
Its not news, its been discussed for years.

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
Tuna said:
You could have just left it there.. perhaps added "wacists!", just to make it sound more decisive. rofl
Oh come on Tuna.

Where's your perfectly calibrated crystal ball to predict the future to a close enough confidence level to overcome massively entrenched preconceptions? Eh?

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
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Stay in Bed Instead said:
Can any positive outcomes yet be guaranteed?
Can anything in the future be "guaranteed"?

We might not leave on the 31st - if the sun decides to throw a coronal mass ejection in our direction in the next week or so, I'd almost guarantee we won't...

We'll be too busy trying to survive to worry about st like supranational politics.

DeepEnd

4,240 posts

65 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
And when asked for links to Carney making positive predictions (he's on record saying the deal is not as good for the economy as Mays, albeit it's better than no deal), we get the well worn "no one can predict the future!".

Which is it - "we've proved it's going to be great on these pages many times" or "we can't possibly know?"


Dont like rolls

3,798 posts

53 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
Sway said:
Dont like rolls said:
Sway said:
Fortunately, the expensive steak I ate was on expenses. Annoyingly, it means I've still not managed to try true Kobe wagyu beef... One day...
I have twice, both times in Japan, I can honestly say it is a pleasure I treasure, it defies description. (My host paid both time thank god)
I'm very jealous.

Do you know which 'grade' you had, and if different across each steak, how it effected the experience?
I do not, but I have since seen Tv travel/food program and I believe it was the top grade. I remember being rather shocked at the price and very happy not to be the one paying for it. The Restaurant was called Kokubu.

It is very much worth the investment, I would rather spend on that experience again rather than ANY other experience in Japan (if I had to choose). Memorable seems superficial.

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
Dont like rolls said:
I do not, but I have since seen Tv travel/food program and I believe it was the top grade. I remember being rather shocked at the price and very happy not to be the one paying for it. The Restaurant was called Kokubu.

It is very much worth the investment, I would rather spend on that experience again rather than ANY other experience in Japan (if I had to choose). Memorable seems superficial.
thumbup

I restate my jealousy.

I've had the opportunity to buy grade 5 Wagyu Kobe twice - neither time did I have anything like the spare funds available.

I now know someone who can get it for me "whenever" - I think one of my goals for 2020 is to make that my birthday meal treat... I'll start saving, only got until June.

991_GT3

42 posts

51 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
quotequote all
Sway said:
thumbup

I restate my jealousy.

I've had the opportunity to buy grade 5 Wagyu Kobe twice - neither time did I have anything like the spare funds available.

I now know someone who can get it for me "whenever" - I think one of my goals for 2020 is to make that my birthday meal treat... I'll start saving, only got until June.
I had sensational Kobe beef as part of a special Kaiseki menu when I was last in Japan on business. I had the sirloin, not the fillet, which was incredibly flavoursome.

The only bad bit was that I did have to fund the meal myself, but it was my birthday, so easily justified!
There was no-one else at the Teppenyaki grill, so I got a one to one chat with the chef too!



Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Sunday 19th January 2020
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