Climate change - the POLITICAL debate (Vol 6)
Discussion
Mrr T said:
kerplunk said:
oh dear more rubbish. CO2 measurements in ice cores are NOT a proxy! They are direct measurements of carbon dioxide in captured air. Temperature is inferred from isotopes and therefore is a proxy (of regional sea temperature).
I'm also pretty sure the notion that ice core CO2 measurements aren't a reliable indicator of global background CO2 levels is made up too. To justify that claim you'd need to present plausible local CO2 sources/sinks that could affect the measurements. Not many of those on the frozen high plains of Antarctica 4km above sea level.
You really need to read up on the subject. Air is trapped in tiny bubbles in ice. The air is then subject to many external factors. From snow fall to sun, temperature and melt water. The air bubbles also move and combine so a bubble my cover decades or even centuries. All of which needs to be dealt with in the reconstruction. . They also know separating ice core rings become much more difficult with age because the ice is crushed by new ice. I'm also pretty sure the notion that ice core CO2 measurements aren't a reliable indicator of global background CO2 levels is made up too. To justify that claim you'd need to present plausible local CO2 sources/sinks that could affect the measurements. Not many of those on the frozen high plains of Antarctica 4km above sea level.
So CO2 data from ice cores is very much a proxy for actual CO2 level in any year.
The problem then with any proxy is how good it is. To do that you need to have a control. At the moment no good control exists and will not for many years.
PRTVR said:
El stovey said:
turbobloke said:
and long before then the resulting political fallout from such costly and pointless greenblobbism will be felt. Macron and his mates have had a taster already.
So you keep saying but most countries, like the U.K. are making and increasing commitments that completely contradict your statement.You also keep saying the tide is turning, but it obviously isn’t. So now you’re changing it to some other nonsense.
Do you think Boris is deliberately making commitments that damage the U.K. economically and will damage him and his party politically just to appease environmentalists?
if history is a guide going forward, the jobs will be minimal, solar panels from Germany, wind turbines from Norway, Germany and Denmark.
Then we come to batteries, most of the rare earth materials come from China, basically because they don't care about pollution,
So what do we do? Well as part of NATO we decided they are now an enemy, China threatens to the militarization of the supply, that will make it interesting when everything we have is battery powered, great joined up thinking don't you think?
kerplunk said:
PRTVR said:
El stovey said:
turbobloke said:
and long before then the resulting political fallout from such costly and pointless greenblobbism will be felt. Macron and his mates have had a taster already.
So you keep saying but most countries, like the U.K. are making and increasing commitments that completely contradict your statement.You also keep saying the tide is turning, but it obviously isn’t. So now you’re changing it to some other nonsense.
Do you think Boris is deliberately making commitments that damage the U.K. economically and will damage him and his party politically just to appease environmentalists?
if history is a guide going forward, the jobs will be minimal, solar panels from Germany, wind turbines from Norway, Germany and Denmark.
Then we come to batteries, most of the rare earth materials come from China, basically because they don't care about pollution,
So what do we do? Well as part of NATO we decided they are now an enemy, China threatens to the militarization of the supply, that will make it interesting when everything we have is battery powered, great joined up thinking don't you think?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-5027...
Then with fracking we have our own gas.
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-china-trade...
El stovey said:
You also keep saying the tide is turning, but it obviously isn’t. So now you’re changing it to some other nonsense.
Is turning, present tense? Definitely not. I 've never said the tide is turning, what I've said is that the situation will get worse before it gets better. That's the opposite of your made-up claim. I have a view of the future as well as the present - see below.Therefore although what's happening in the UK can't disprove what I post as you got that (posting) wrong, events around the world are in support of what I post as those events are the basis for posting. There's no sign that such events are isolated and non-recurring, quite the opposite, as per Dutch farmers recently following from France and Chile not long before.
When you say 'nonsense' that simply means you don't agree with what I post, though I have a basis for it whereas you can't even get what I post right in your haste to fail at point scoring.
Nice to see the BBC covering something scientific other than climate change
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-507...
And a documentary this weekend ! Nice work Beeb .... .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-507...
And a documentary this weekend ! Nice work Beeb .... .
UN climate talks hit rough waters
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-507...
UN climate talks appear to be in trouble as they head into extra time.
Fault lines have re-appeared between different negotiating blocs, with one delegate describing a new draft text as "totally unacceptable".
Alden Meyer, from the Union of Concerned Scientists said the situation in Madrid was unprecedented since climate negotiations began in 1991.
Negotiators are working towards a deal that would see countries commit to make new climate pledges by the end of 2020.
Saturday saw the release of a new draft text from the meeting, designed to chart a way forward for the parties to the Paris agreement......continuwa
Still more squabbling at the party.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-507...
UN climate talks appear to be in trouble as they head into extra time.
Fault lines have re-appeared between different negotiating blocs, with one delegate describing a new draft text as "totally unacceptable".
Alden Meyer, from the Union of Concerned Scientists said the situation in Madrid was unprecedented since climate negotiations began in 1991.
Negotiators are working towards a deal that would see countries commit to make new climate pledges by the end of 2020.
Saturday saw the release of a new draft text from the meeting, designed to chart a way forward for the parties to the Paris agreement......continuwa
Still more squabbling at the party.
The negotiations are easy....some countries are all for rapid transition to a carbon dioxide free existence...some other countries are seriously worried at the costs involved. The countries with those worries just have to be financially incentivised to let those worries just melt away.
Where’s the problem?
Where’s the problem?
DaveGrohl said:
Just out of interest (and I prob won't post again on this thread, you guys are having a fun time without me), what is the official classification for someone who "believes" that temps are currently warming slightly but doesn't subscribe to the whole CC belief system, involving man being the death of the planet within 10 (or is it 12 years now? I forget) but does think that the relatively recent burning of fossil fuels on a massive scale really isn't a good thing on so many levels? These concerns go waaaaay beyond any local skirmish over CC causes. Am I to be classified as a denier?
I've been reading these threads for years and I don't recall ever seeing anyone post here who thinks that. Do those people even exist?As far as I can see it's people who simply accept the science of AGW trying to explain it to people who think it's:
- a left wing political conspiracy (inexplicably conducted by right wing governments);
- communist / socialist / BBC plot;
- the greatest scientific fraud in history;
- an international conspiracy spanning decades designed to make everyone pay 0.1% more tax;
- we'll end up with no electricity;
- we'll be forced to live in mud huts etc.
I'm not sure what your opening sentence means Durbster. Could you explain please? Are you saying you've never been aware of anyone who thinks polution in general is a bad thing but that the current "debate" on CC is much more complicated than just CO2? Sorry, it's not clear from the way you phrased it.
Also, how did we ever manage for all those years without using the current fashionable word "strawman"?
Also, how did we ever manage for all those years without using the current fashionable word "strawman"?
DaveGrohl said:
I'm not sure what your opening sentence means Durbster. Could you explain please? Are you saying you've never been aware of anyone who thinks polution in general is a bad thing but that the current "debate" on CC is much more complicated than just CO2? Sorry, it's not clear from the way you phrased it.
Ah sorry, I wasn't clear I was referring to this bit:DaveGrohl said:
...but doesn't subscribe to the whole CC belief system, involving man being the death of the planet within 10 (or is it 12 years now? I forget)
I've never seen anyone (other than the resident deniers) making claims about the planet dying or similar Armageddon scenarios. In fact, I once asked them to show one example of a climate science paper that contained the doomsday predictions they keep referring to and they came up absolutely blank.DaveGrohl said:
Also, how did we ever manage for all those years without using the current fashionable word "strawman"?
I believe I used it correctly though
It's not clear what it means (strawman) because sooo many people are using it all the time since, what, 2 months ago? It's clearly taken over from people starting every sense with so (when they're speaking). I looked up its meaning and a lot of people misuse it, not that you did, as far as I can gather.
As far as the 10-12 years scenario goes that's media/political rhetoric but there are a lot of people using it, I can't believe you haven't noticed. it really doesn't do anyone any favours, whichever side of the black/white debate you're on. I'm very much a shades of grey man, there are a lot of us out there.
As far as the 10-12 years scenario goes that's media/political rhetoric but there are a lot of people using it, I can't believe you haven't noticed. it really doesn't do anyone any favours, whichever side of the black/white debate you're on. I'm very much a shades of grey man, there are a lot of us out there.
DaveGrohl said:
kerplunk said:
Some of us have been using the strawman analogy for years so the suggestion that we got by without using it for years before it became fashionable is a strawman.
Fair play, that's me told. I'd never heard of it til a couple of months ago and now it's everywhere.Very popular usage in the Global Warming niche. As you have found.
LongQ said:
DaveGrohl said:
kerplunk said:
Some of us have been using the strawman analogy for years so the suggestion that we got by without using it for years before it became fashionable is a strawman.
Fair play, that's me told. I'd never heard of it til a couple of months ago and now it's everywhere.Very popular usage in the Global Warming niche. As you have found.
COP25: Longest climate talks end with compromise deal
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a...
The longest United Nations climate talks on record have finally ended in Madrid with a compromise deal.
Exhausted delegates reached agreement on the key question of increasing the global response to curbing carbon.
All countries will need to put new climate pledges on the table by the time of the next major conference in Glasgow next year.
Divisions over other questions - including carbon markets - were delayed until the next gathering.
What was agreed?
After two extra days and nights of negotiations, delegates finally agreed a deal that will see new, improved carbon cutting plans on the table by the time of the Glasgow conference next year.
All parties will need to address the gap between what the science says is necessary to avoid dangerous climate change, and the current state of play which would see the world go past this threshold in the 2030s.......................continues
Er, all came to nowt then. Oops, what a surprise. Let's have another party again though soon.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a...
The longest United Nations climate talks on record have finally ended in Madrid with a compromise deal.
Exhausted delegates reached agreement on the key question of increasing the global response to curbing carbon.
All countries will need to put new climate pledges on the table by the time of the next major conference in Glasgow next year.
Divisions over other questions - including carbon markets - were delayed until the next gathering.
What was agreed?
After two extra days and nights of negotiations, delegates finally agreed a deal that will see new, improved carbon cutting plans on the table by the time of the Glasgow conference next year.
All parties will need to address the gap between what the science says is necessary to avoid dangerous climate change, and the current state of play which would see the world go past this threshold in the 2030s.......................continues
Er, all came to nowt then. Oops, what a surprise. Let's have another party again though soon.
robinessex said:
COP25: Longest climate talks end with compromise deal
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a...
The longest United Nations climate talks on record have finally ended in Madrid with a compromise deal.
Exhausted delegates reached agreement on the key question of increasing the global response to curbing carbon.
All countries will need to put new climate pledges on the table by the time of the next major conference in Glasgow next year.
Divisions over other questions - including carbon markets - were delayed until the next gathering.
What was agreed?
After two extra days and nights of negotiations, delegates finally agreed a deal that will see new, improved carbon cutting plans on the table by the time of the Glasgow conference next year.
All parties will need to address the gap between what the science says is necessary to avoid dangerous climate change, and the current state of play which would see the world go past this threshold in the 2030s.......................continues
Er, all came to nowt then. Oops, what a surprise. Let's have another party again though soon.
The rich countries that want to show leadership should just fund the rich countries that don’t and of course the countries most at risk...for example Puerto Rico and, er, Germany.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a...
The longest United Nations climate talks on record have finally ended in Madrid with a compromise deal.
Exhausted delegates reached agreement on the key question of increasing the global response to curbing carbon.
All countries will need to put new climate pledges on the table by the time of the next major conference in Glasgow next year.
Divisions over other questions - including carbon markets - were delayed until the next gathering.
What was agreed?
After two extra days and nights of negotiations, delegates finally agreed a deal that will see new, improved carbon cutting plans on the table by the time of the Glasgow conference next year.
All parties will need to address the gap between what the science says is necessary to avoid dangerous climate change, and the current state of play which would see the world go past this threshold in the 2030s.......................continues
Er, all came to nowt then. Oops, what a surprise. Let's have another party again though soon.
How hard can it be?
Kawasicki said:
robinessex said:
COP25: Longest climate talks end with compromise deal
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a...
The longest United Nations climate talks on record have finally ended in Madrid with a compromise deal.
Exhausted delegates reached agreement on the key question of increasing the global response to curbing carbon.
All countries will need to put new climate pledges on the table by the time of the next major conference in Glasgow next year.
Divisions over other questions - including carbon markets - were delayed until the next gathering.
What was agreed?
After two extra days and nights of negotiations, delegates finally agreed a deal that will see new, improved carbon cutting plans on the table by the time of the Glasgow conference next year.
All parties will need to address the gap between what the science says is necessary to avoid dangerous climate change, and the current state of play which would see the world go past this threshold in the 2030s.......................continues
Er, all came to nowt then. Oops, what a surprise. Let's have another party again though soon.
The rich countries that want to show leadership should just fund the rich countries that don’t and of course the countries most at risk...for example Puerto Rico and, er, Germany.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a...
The longest United Nations climate talks on record have finally ended in Madrid with a compromise deal.
Exhausted delegates reached agreement on the key question of increasing the global response to curbing carbon.
All countries will need to put new climate pledges on the table by the time of the next major conference in Glasgow next year.
Divisions over other questions - including carbon markets - were delayed until the next gathering.
What was agreed?
After two extra days and nights of negotiations, delegates finally agreed a deal that will see new, improved carbon cutting plans on the table by the time of the Glasgow conference next year.
All parties will need to address the gap between what the science says is necessary to avoid dangerous climate change, and the current state of play which would see the world go past this threshold in the 2030s.......................continues
Er, all came to nowt then. Oops, what a surprise. Let's have another party again though soon.
How hard can it be?
Ah, yes - Lichtenstein will save the world!!
https://www.debtacademy.com/the-debt-free-countrie...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...
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