Tesla choose Germany over UK for its first European plant.
Discussion
Keoparakolo said:
My point was simplified to save writing paragraphs. However, I’ve now written those paragraphs to make it absolutely clear, as nobody wanted to take me on with the point I was really making. However, as that was implied, I’ve now made it explicit.
Can you answer those points, or is the stance that you have to have a factory in the same country as your main customers quite daft? Don’t forget that those customers are the final assembly point of the overall product before it goes to retail.
It comes down to this
Either, the UK is truly screwed, as we are not the producer of end products in manufacturing in anything of volume and so will struggle to attract any manufacturing from overseas at all.
Or, the argument being put forward by many Brexit supporters on here is a bit daft.
You seem to be asking me to defend an argument I haven't made. You made assertions that weren't true. I challenged them. Feel free to bash on with whatever your point is.Can you answer those points, or is the stance that you have to have a factory in the same country as your main customers quite daft? Don’t forget that those customers are the final assembly point of the overall product before it goes to retail.
It comes down to this
Either, the UK is truly screwed, as we are not the producer of end products in manufacturing in anything of volume and so will struggle to attract any manufacturing from overseas at all.
Or, the argument being put forward by many Brexit supporters on here is a bit daft.
fblm said:
You seem to be asking me to defend an argument I haven't made. You made assertions that weren't true. I challenged them. Feel free to bash on with whatever your point is.
You might not have made those assertions, but many did. That’s who I was challenging. You chose to answer for them, feel free to carry on answering for them, or you could just give your opinion on the either / or question I asked. swiveleyedgit said:
Anecdotally, my son, who lives and works in Berlin, has mentioned in the past that the city's finances are in the s
t, and they struggle to attract new business. He says there's infrastructure projects all over the city that never seem to get finished, the u bahn station where he lives has been 'nearly ready' for 10 years. I imagine Tesla opening a factory there would be a big boost for the place.
t, and they struggle to attract new business. He says there's infrastructure projects all over the city that never seem to get finished, the u bahn station where he lives has been 'nearly ready' for 10 years. I imagine Tesla opening a factory there would be a big boost for the place. RedWhiteMonkey said:
Berlin is a bit of oddity in terms of capital cities as it is relatively poor compared to the other major cities in its country. The major money in Germany is in the south. I would not be surprised if the German Government were offering incentives to Tesla.
Again, completely anecdotally. Berlin is more run down than many people would expect for a capital city of a major country. When you move around the place there's still a visible East/West divide in terms of property. But it ALL feels tired. Whereas even London, whilst far from perfect gives off a better more prosperous attitude. Potsdammer is nice though.Jammez]ustinsmirk said:
pretty logical to have a plant of such a size in mainland Europe, full of its transport links and material supplies, as oppose to on a pokey Island with the massive added cost of shipping everything in/out.
really you have to credit former governments for getting any massive manufacturer- eg nissan, to place anything in the UK.
I'm with you here, it really is surprising that anyone would choose the UK to manufacture cars that will mostly be sold in mainland Europe. Genuine question, how would the UK try & convince someone like Tesla to come here other than some kind of financial incentive? What would the benefits of building a car in the UK be?
It's like honda.... Most of what they make in Swindon now goes back to Japan and out to the US. Very little gets in to Europe because they don't make cars that people here want. Seemingly. Seems mad to keep a factory like that in a location with some of the highest overheads around when you could be making stuff cheaper and closer to home. The head of honda UK even said as much. But no, Brexit.really you have to credit former governments for getting any massive manufacturer- eg nissan, to place anything in the UK.
I'm with you here, it really is surprising that anyone would choose the UK to manufacture cars that will mostly be sold in mainland Europe. Genuine question, how would the UK try & convince someone like Tesla to come here other than some kind of financial incentive? What would the benefits of building a car in the UK be?
Keoparakolo said:
Lots of great graphs, but that’s not the issue. The view on here seems to be that Musk had to set up in Germany to be near his end user manufacturing customers. So out of all those graphs can you tell me what is an end product? An end product is one that goes to retail next. If we don’t have many of them, then we’re screwed according to the Brexit fans, as a company can only set up next door to their customer.
See the point I’m making? I’m basically pointing out how ridiculous the Brexit supporter argument on here is that he had to set up in Germany, because cars are made there.
I didn't think anyone said he had to be near his suppliers and competitors to make it work. Just that it seems more logical. Which it does. I like Germany, they're really good at making high tech stuff and I get to deal with many small but very profitable engineering outfits from there. If I was gonna start an engineering firm...I'd be doing it there!!! Not here.See the point I’m making? I’m basically pointing out how ridiculous the Brexit supporter argument on here is that he had to set up in Germany, because cars are made there.
Keoparakolo said:
My point was simplified to save writing paragraphs. However, I’ve now written those paragraphs to make it absolutely clear, as nobody wanted to take me on with the point I was really making. However, as that was implied, I’ve now made it explicit.
Can you answer those points, or is the stance that you have to have a factory in the same country as your main customers quite daft? Don’t forget that those customers are the final assembly point of the overall product before it goes to retail.
It comes down to this
Either, the UK is truly screwed, as we are not the producer of end products in manufacturing in anything of volume and so will struggle to attract any manufacturing from overseas at all.
Or, the argument being put forward by many Brexit supporters on here is a bit daft.
Why do you think he has set up a factory in the EU. You seem to be saying that he could have set up anywhere. Why did he not just import the cars he builds in china. Labour costs are much lower there. Can you answer those points, or is the stance that you have to have a factory in the same country as your main customers quite daft? Don’t forget that those customers are the final assembly point of the overall product before it goes to retail.
It comes down to this
Either, the UK is truly screwed, as we are not the producer of end products in manufacturing in anything of volume and so will struggle to attract any manufacturing from overseas at all.
Or, the argument being put forward by many Brexit supporters on here is a bit daft.
As for the part I have bolded...Once again you make an assumption that just isn't true.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/ma...
Keoparakolo said:
...So out of all those graphs can you tell me what is an end product? An end product is one that goes to retail next. If we don’t have many of them, then we’re screwed according to the Brexit fans, as a company can only set up next door to their customer.
...
I would have thought the benefits of manufacturing a product close to your main market were obvious, especially when that location is also world renowned for it's engineering and manufacturing excellence. Do you have to? No of course not, it's just one many considerations. Is this really the point you're labouring? The difficulties of locating your production where you face an unknown tariff schedule and potential import/export friction would seem more serious but equally obvious. Not to mention political instability and the chance of a semi-communist regime change hell bent on expropriating property and demonising businesses, billionaires and your customers. ...
Vanden Saab said:
Why do you think he has set up a factory in the EU. You seem to be saying that he could have set up anywhere. Why did he not just import the cars he builds in china. Labour costs are much lower there.
As for the part I have bolded...Once again you make an assumption that just isn't true.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/ma...
He could certainly have set up in the UK compared to Germany if he’d wanted to. The geographic constraints are non-existent, the distance across Europe is smaller than across a couple of states in the US. The restriction is exactly as you state, that being the EU. The UK has created unnecessary barriers and if Brexit happens, then for a period of time it will be awkward to move parts / finished products in and out of the UK from most mainland European countries, even those outside the EU have deals in place currently. As for the part I have bolded...Once again you make an assumption that just isn't true.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/ma...
fblm said:
I would have thought the benefits of manufacturing a product close to your main market were obvious, especially when that location is also world renowned for it's engineering and manufacturing excellence. Do you have to? No of course not, it's just one many considerations. Is this really the point you're labouring? The difficulties of locating your production where you face an unknown tariff schedule and potential import/export friction would seem more serious but equally obvious. Not to mention political instability and the chance of a semi-communist regime change hell bent on expropriating property and demonising businesses, billionaires and your customers.
How close do they need to be? Next door? Same country? Same trading group? Same continent? Distance is pretty much irrelevant nowadays, but ease of movement of goods, especially for ‘just in time’ production is critical. The point I’m making, not labouring, is this.
Brexit supporters - he must set up in Germany no matter what, as that’s where cars are built.
Is this statement true or not?
If it is, then the UK is in bother as we don’t make much that is an end product and so nearly all investment will go elsewhere, as that’s where the end user is situated.
Keoparakolo said:
How close do they need to be? Next door? Same country? Same trading group? Same continent? Distance is pretty much irrelevant nowadays, but ease of movement of goods, especially for ‘just in time’ production is critical.
The point I’m making, not labouring, is this.
Brexit supporters - he must set up in Germany no matter what, as that’s where cars are built.
Is this statement true or not?
If it is, then the UK is in bother as we don’t make much that is an end product and so nearly all investment will go elsewhere, as that’s where the end user is situated.
It's just brexiter voters way of convincing themselves it was not their vote that is killing UK manufacturing and threatening future investment. The point I’m making, not labouring, is this.
Brexit supporters - he must set up in Germany no matter what, as that’s where cars are built.
Is this statement true or not?
If it is, then the UK is in bother as we don’t make much that is an end product and so nearly all investment will go elsewhere, as that’s where the end user is situated.
They are only convincing themselves, and even then most surely know the linkages are all too real.
They are convincing everyone else that their views are easily swayed to fit their "brexit at all costs, it can't be wrong" narrative.
Still a Lotus hypercar might save us. Brexit = Lots of trouble, usually serious.
fblm said:
I would have thought the benefits of manufacturing a product close to your main market were obvious, especially when that location is also world renowned for it's engineering and manufacturing excellence. Do you have to? No of course not, it's just one many considerations. Is this really the point you're labouring? The difficulties of locating your production where you face an unknown tariff schedule and potential import/export friction would seem more serious but equally obvious. Not to mention political instability and the chance of a semi-communist regime change hell bent on expropriating property and demonising businesses, billionaires and your customers.
However, the UK does have access to finance, a well educated workforce, an existing manufacturing base in the automotive industry, wonderful universities and much more more. What the UK doesn't (possibly) have is F.O.M for labour, clear tariffs policy, any trade deals, stable, capable government, frictionless trade with our nearest suppliers and customers.
One has to ask ones self just why didn't Tesla choose the UK.
Taking back control really makes sense now, doesn't it?
Frictionless. That's bandied around a lot on here. It's as if friction means something stops.
What about reducing friction on trade between the UK and the majority of nations around the world outside of the EU?
What about, where we have situations where we have weaknesses in areas against our competing partners in the EU, we have powers to address those weaknesses in our own way or perhaps offset those weaknesses with an incentive in other respects?
No automotive components are made anywhere else in the world outside the EU. No car manufacturers exist outside the EU and nobody drives cars in nations outside the EU.
We're doomed!
What about reducing friction on trade between the UK and the majority of nations around the world outside of the EU?
What about, where we have situations where we have weaknesses in areas against our competing partners in the EU, we have powers to address those weaknesses in our own way or perhaps offset those weaknesses with an incentive in other respects?
No automotive components are made anywhere else in the world outside the EU. No car manufacturers exist outside the EU and nobody drives cars in nations outside the EU.
We're doomed!
crankedup said:
Yes Germany are still using the filthy coal to fire their energy needs (around 45%) No wonder they have an industrial edge when they give two fingers to our environment, just like China.
I’ve notice you’ve been trotting out the “around 45%” figure again. Have you a new source for this as in your own thread about “Dirty Germans” you conceded it was actually 35%. Not to mention they’re winding down nuclear, their use in renewables is increasing and is more than ours. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
dai1983 said:
crankedup said:
Yes Germany are still using the filthy coal to fire their energy needs (around 45%) No wonder they have an industrial edge when they give two fingers to our environment, just like China.
I’ve notice you’ve been trotting out the “around 45%” figure again. Have you a new source for this as in your own thread about “Dirty Germans” you conceded it was actually 35%. Not to mention they’re winding down nuclear, their use in renewables is increasing and is more than ours. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
DeepEnd said:
It's just brexiter voters way of convincing themselves it was not their vote that is killing UK manufacturing and threatening future investment.
They are only convincing themselves, and even then most surely know the linkages are all too real.
They are convincing everyone else that their views are easily swayed to fit their "brexit at all costs, it can't be wrong" narrative.
Still a Lotus hypercar might save us. Brexit = Lots of trouble, usually serious.
I owned an Elan S1 back in the 70s. A bloody lovely little car.They are only convincing themselves, and even then most surely know the linkages are all too real.
They are convincing everyone else that their views are easily swayed to fit their "brexit at all costs, it can't be wrong" narrative.
Still a Lotus hypercar might save us. Brexit = Lots of trouble, usually serious.
An heavily modded Exige S1 mid 2000s. Uncomfortable and noisy but extremely quick on a track. Not a road car though.
I don’t see Lotus growing much unless they change their offer.
Nickgnome said:
I owned an Elan S1 back in the 70s. A bloody lovely little car.
An heavily modded Exige S1 mid 2000s. Uncomfortable and noisy but extremely quick on a track. Not a road car though.
I don’t see Lotus growing much unless they change their offer.
Hi Nick, I see you have been batting off the riff-raff all afternoon ... what fortitude!An heavily modded Exige S1 mid 2000s. Uncomfortable and noisy but extremely quick on a track. Not a road car though.
I don’t see Lotus growing much unless they change their offer.
As with many small British sports car manufacturers, Lotus, and in particular, TVR have been through many hands to save the marque. Niche markets are great but we are now an assembly line for foreign owned brands across the global market.
What, I believe, we have always excelled at is innovation and invention and that appears to be where our future lies with R&D into alternative energy sources.
Edited by pequod on Saturday 16th November 18:36
Nickgnome said:
TonyToniTone said:
ReincarnatedBannedUser said:
Is this statement true or not?
He was always going to setup in Germany.wiki said:
Initial discussion of a Tesla gigafactory in Europe occurred as early as 2015. The factory was then thought to be a combined electric battery manufacturing facility and automobile factory. In 2016, Tesla was anticipating to announce the factory in 2017.
The factory had previously been referred to as Gigafactory 2 prior to 22 February 2017, when Tesla began to refer to the SolarCity Gigafactory in Buffalo, New York as Gigafactory 2. By 2017, the Europe Gigafactory was expected to be named either Gigafactory 4 or 5. In the event, in November 2019, it became Gigafactory 4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Gigafactory_Eu...The factory had previously been referred to as Gigafactory 2 prior to 22 February 2017, when Tesla began to refer to the SolarCity Gigafactory in Buffalo, New York as Gigafactory 2. By 2017, the Europe Gigafactory was expected to be named either Gigafactory 4 or 5. In the event, in November 2019, it became Gigafactory 4.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff