Tesla choose Germany over UK for its first European plant.

[DeepEnd]

Earthdweller said:

DeepEnd said:

Isn’t Brexit going well?

Such a terrific idea.

Oh !

Have I missed the UK leaving the EU !

When did that happen ?

I can imagine your fingers were jammed hard in your ears when hugely successful business entrepreneur Elon Musk confirmed that stupid Brexit has made the UK a less attractive place for his billions, technology and jobs.

Sadly for the credibility of all “global” brexiter wizards, Elon comprehensively pissed on your bonfire today. I say bonfire, smouldering pile of ash with no redeeming features might be nearer the mark.

[Condi]

Max_Torque said:

Well i guess it's lucky that "personally" your opinion is being completely ignored by people who actually know what they are talking about! ;-)



(hint, there is no battery recycling issue, and the mass of an EV is effectively already less than that of a ICE in terms of the effect it has on energy consumption)

Asian countries are pressing ahead with hydrogen because it solves a lot of problems battery cars have around range and refuelling speed. 1.5kg of hydrogen will do 300 miles or so, and can be refuelled in as much time as it currently takes to fill a petrol car. The hydrogen is easy to create from renewable energy too. They're very much a niche technology for now, but I don't see batteries being the future, more an interim step. By 2050, at forecast demand, the UK will use twice the worlds current consumption of colbolt. Batteries are simply not a good way to store large amounts of energy.

[MikeT66]

DeepEnd said:

I can imagine your fingers were jammed hard in your ears when hugely successful business entrepreneur Elon Musk confirmed that stupid Brexit has made the UK a less attractive place for his billions, technology and jobs.

No - he said Brexit uncertainty played a role in the decision. There's a difference.

[Biker 1]

I think it's all smoke & mirrors & Elon is taking them all for fools.
Tesla IMO will run out of money, & there simply won't be an organisation big enough to continue propping it all up. First plant to go will be this new German venture (assuming it actually gets built in the first place.....)
I don't believe there is a link to Brexit

[Major T]

MikeT66 said:

No - he said Brexit uncertainty played a role in the decision. There's a difference.

Finally- someone spotted the key word.

Certainty is needed.

[Nexus Icon]

Major T said:

MikeT66 said:

No - he said Brexit uncertainty played a role in the decision. There's a difference.

Finally- someone spotted the key word.

Certainty is needed.

I don't think he did say, "uncertainty," to be honest. That seems to be a Sky News addendum.

Speaking to the industry website Auto Express, Mr Musk said: "Brexit (uncertainty) made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK."

[Phil Dicky]

MikeT66 said:

DeepEnd said:

I can imagine your fingers were jammed hard in your ears when hugely successful business entrepreneur Elon Musk confirmed that stupid Brexit has made the UK a less attractive place for his billions, technology and jobs.

No - he said Brexit uncertainty played a role in the decision. There's a difference.

Plus it might be prudent to compare the German car manufacturing industry and our own. That may have had a very slight influence on Musk's plans.

[98elise]

Condi said:

Max_Torque said:

Well i guess it's lucky that "personally" your opinion is being completely ignored by people who actually know what they are talking about! ;-)



(hint, there is no battery recycling issue, and the mass of an EV is effectively already less than that of a ICE in terms of the effect it has on energy consumption)

Asian countries are pressing ahead with hydrogen because it solves a lot of problems battery cars have around range and refuelling speed. 1.5kg of hydrogen will do 300 miles or so, and can be refuelled in as much time as it currently takes to fill a petrol car. The hydrogen is easy to create from renewable energy too. They're very much a niche technology for now, but I don't see batteries being the future, more an interim step. By 2050, at forecast demand, the UK will use twice the worlds current consumption of colbolt. Batteries are simply not a good way to store large amounts of energy.

Hydrogen consumes 3x the energy to produce. It leaks out of everything. It needs to be stored at 10000psi, Tanks have a short life (8 years). It also takes longer to fuel than petrol. It's a dead end.

You can't beat physics.

[blueg33]

98elise said:

Hydrogen consumes 3x the energy to produce. It leaks out of everything. It needs to be stored at 10000psi, Tanks have a short life (8 years). It also takes longer to fuel than petrol. It's a dead end.

You can't beat physics.

Surely hydrogen is stored st around 13 bar (188psi) as that is the pressure at which it liquifies? Seems unlikely it would need to be stored at 55x pressure.

[blueg33]

98elise said:

Hydrogen consumes 3x the energy to produce. It leaks out of everything. It needs to be stored at 10000psi, Tanks have a short life (8 years). It also takes longer to fuel than petrol. It's a dead end.

You can't beat physics.

Surely hydrogen is stored st around 13 bar (188psi) as that is the pressure at which it liquifies? Seems unlikely it would need to be stored at 55x pressure.


Edit. Done some research. 10000 psi is the absolute top end 5000 is more likely

[Condi]

98elise said:

Hydrogen consumes 3x the energy to produce. It leaks out of everything. It needs to be stored at 10000psi, Tanks have a short life (8 years). It also takes longer to fuel than petrol. It's a dead end.

You can't beat physics.

How does it consume 3x the energy to produce? Wikipedia (not the best source, but not usually that wrong) gives electrolysis an 80%+ efficiency, and while there will be losses from the fuel cell I don't see how they can be that inefficient that it goes from 80-90% efficiency at production to 33% by consumption.

[rodericb]

BlackLabel said:

“The Tesla boss, Elon Musk, has said Brexit uncertainty played a role in the firm’s decision to build its first European factory in Germany rather than the UK.

The billionaire entrepreneur revealed that the firm’s European battery plant would be built on the outskirts of Berlin.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13...

Three years earlier.... (yes, I know three years is an eternity in the EV, technology and Brexit industries....)

Autoblog said:

"Musk does not see Brexit and the current climate of financial insecurity surrounding Britain as a hindrance, and that Brexit is not likely to have "a significant impact" on Tesla's plans"
https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/09/tesla-looking-...

Something has changed.

Guardian said:

“Some of the best cars in the world are made in Germany. Everyone knows that German engineering is outstanding, for sure, and that’s part of the reason why we are locating our Gigafactory Europe in Germany. We are also going to create an engineering and design centre in Berlin.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13...

Hmmm, okay....

Teslarati said:

Musk’s announcement attracted plenty of attention from members of Germany’s government, including Economy Prime Minister Peter Altmaier, who spoke about possible subsidies for Tesla as a result of Gigafactory 4. “Subsidies have not yet been discussed. It’s clear that Tesla – if it invests in Germany and creates jobs here, will be treated like all other companies in the automobile and automotive industry,” he said to the media. “That means we will treat all players who invest in Germany equally and without discrimination.”

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-4-germ...

There it is.

guardian said:

He had previously said that if there was sufficient demand a factory could subsequently be built in the UK, although Tesla planned to open its first European factory on the continent.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13...

Hmm, it appears that this first factory was never going to be built in the UK in the first place..... Anyhooo, best you lot get buying Tesla cars to create enough demand for him to throw together the right-hookers for the world in the UK!

[austinsmirk]

pretty logical to have a plant of such a size in mainland Europe, full of its transport links and material supplies, as oppose to on a pokey Island with the massive added cost of shipping everything in/out.

really you have to credit former governments for getting any massive manufacturer- eg nissan, to place anything in the UK.

I found it hilarious on question time the other night, set in sunderland- who voted massively for leave, to then winge about the factory potentially closing, plus lack of jobs, lack of investment in the area.

Masters of their own destiny there !

[blueg33]

austinsmirk said:

pretty logical to have a plant of such a size in mainland Europe, full of its transport links and material supplies, as oppose to on a pokey Island with the massive added cost of shipping everything in/out.

really you have to credit former governments for getting any massive manufacturer- eg nissan, to place anything in the UK.

I found it hilarious on question time the other night, set in sunderland- who voted massively for leave, to then winge about the factory potentially closing, plus lack of jobs, lack of investment in the area.

Masters of their own destiny there !

Amazing how many turkeys voted for christmas.

[Jammez]

[quote=austinsmirk]pretty logical to have a plant of such a size in mainland Europe, full of its transport links and material supplies, as oppose to on a pokey Island with the massive added cost of shipping everything in/out.

really you have to credit former governments for getting any massive manufacturer- eg nissan, to place anything in the UK.


I'm with you here, it really is surprising that anyone would choose the UK to manufacture cars that will mostly be sold in mainland Europe. Genuine question, how would the UK try & convince someone like Tesla to come here other than some kind of financial incentive? What would the benefits of building a car in the UK be?

[amusingduck]

blueg33 said:

austinsmirk said:

pretty logical to have a plant of such a size in mainland Europe, full of its transport links and material supplies, as oppose to on a pokey Island with the massive added cost of shipping everything in/out.

really you have to credit former governments for getting any massive manufacturer- eg nissan, to place anything in the UK.

I found it hilarious on question time the other night, set in sunderland- who voted massively for leave, to then winge about the factory potentially closing, plus lack of jobs, lack of investment in the area.

Masters of their own destiny there !

Amazing how many turkeys voted for christmas.

The turkeys voted to bring christmas forward, Christmas was already going to happen regardless (Japan-EU FTA)

[anonymous-user]

He was always going to Germany that is the hub of premium car manufacturing, both competetive and innovative, and will be the eventual exit plan. The UK was never on the table.

The problem is the UK has concentrated on service industries over skilled manufacturing. British manufacturing has reduced more than any other major country in the last 30 years, there is a dearth of skilled labour due to lack of investment, Germany has become the hub for highly skilled labour force and innovation.

[bloomen]

I thought Germany was always the prime option for him so this is not Earth shattering.

However why would anyone with a few millions or billions to chuck around bother with the UK at present? That's no reflection on the skills or infrastructure, it's the inability to offer any certainty.

Presumably pragmatism will prevail eventually. In the meantime money will go to places where pure guesswork doesn't need to be a factor in your investment.

Edited by bloomen on Thursday 14th November 10:46

[anonymous-user]

First hit on google

80% of the UK's car production is exported, of which 54% goes to EU member states.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 14th November 11:14

[T-195]

Lannister902 said:

Brexit has been a disaster.

The factory was going to be built here if only we had bought more of his overpriced junk.

M'kay Elon!

FOS as ever.