A brand new hospital

[malks222]

alangla said:

I accept I'm naïve when it comes to contract law on large scale building projects, but how does the failure of a subcontractor like this become NHS Lothian/the taxpayer's problem and not Multiplex's?

could be many reasons:

- the designer could have been a nominated subcontractor, eg you have no option but to use them

- the client may have engaged the designer on their own contract and been responsible for providing the design to the contractor building

- the client got their specification wrong- eg- we need a ventilation system that works for x number of beds, oops we have actually requested ‘x plus 25’ beds. or we need a filtration system for x specification, oops we have different wards going in now

also some of the article written in the press are terrible, I’d like to know the ‘trade union representatives’ knowledge of contract law and what the actual issues with construction are? also bringing up the snagging list with thousands of lines on it- that’s just normal for a major construction project. some of the items could be fixing minor paint scuffs of damage to doors, not saying it’s not important but on projects of this size they are very common.

It’s obviously a very big issue, the hospital was due to be open. but that’s why there is a contract in place, it will have damages against being late and people will know where the blame lies.

i just don’t feel the truth is actually been reported in the press yet

[Otispunkmeyer]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

A lot of new buildings get done without AC as well. To get the BREEAM certificate... instead they have a system of vents and shafts that are supposed to create circulation when you open a window.

All well and good, but in the building I used to work, once the room had been turned into a sauna by the floor to ceiling, south facing windows... you open the window to cool off... Only, they had also laid jet black tarmac right outside and so all that happened was that it sucked super-heated air into the room.

I remember one day, just sitting, motionless, just dripping in sweat. Any more movement that breathing caused you to feel like you were being washed over with waves of heat. The servers we'd had to temporarily store next door both keeled over and died. I had to go get a cold shower. We bought mobile aircon units but they weren't actually man enough to overcome the significant heat being let in and being built up in the structure.

I just can't fathom how stuff like that gets built. It got is BREEAM certificate proudly displayed on the wall, but nearly every office had then gone out and bought mobile AC units which, I'd wager, are collectively likely to be way less efficient in energy use than just having proper plumbed in AC units with climate control system.

To me its another one of these situations where the people doing the design work either don't have enough experience or put their absolute faith into computer simulations... or working to wholly unsuitable regulations dreamt up by an EU noddy with absolutely zero experience of anything real.

[aeropilot]

Otispunkmeyer said:

To me its another one of these situations where the people doing the design work either don't have enough experience or put their absolute faith into computer simulations... or working to wholly unsuitable regulations dreamt up by an EU noddy with absolutely zero experience of anything real.

Or the main contractor who has agreed to do the job for X amount, tells the designers their design is too expensive, go away and do something cheaper.

Main contractors these days (unlike 40+ years ago) have very few people who have design experience (they don't want to employ Engineers) but still can or try to dictate what/how things should be done.
Too much sub contracting to sub contractors to sub-sub-contractors and no one checking/supervising anything....despite lots of people sitting at desks sending emails to all an sundry rather than doing any actual work. They've ticked their box though, so all is OK.

[ninja-lewis]

malks222 said:

alangla said:

I accept I'm naïve when it comes to contract law on large scale building projects, but how does the failure of a subcontractor like this become NHS Lothian/the taxpayer's problem and not Multiplex's?

- the client got their specification wrong- eg- we need a ventilation system that works for x number of beds, oops we have actually requested ‘x plus 25’ beds. or we need a filtration system for x specification, oops we have different wards going in now

More or less this. The technical standard they were supposed to apply said 10 air changes per hour. But through human error and confusing guidance, NHS Lothian only spec-ed 4 air changes per hour in the Request for Proposal back in 2012. The error was never picked up by anyone until the system was testing shortly before the hospital was meant to open.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/independent-asse...

[jules_s]

ruggedscotty said:

it is a right mess indeed. reading up on this and its going to get worse I believe, same company that's involved with the Glasgow hospital.

They have found so much wrong with this development its all on the web....

https://www.gov.scot/publications/nhs-lothian-resp...

https://www.gov.scot/publications/nhs-lothian-roya...

really worth reading the reports that have been produced. makes for shocking reading

Very little to report which a better soft landing wouldn't have solved?

[vonuber]

Thanks Scotty that was interesting about the pumps.

[200bhp]

Its not a problem that's unique to Scotland. Here in Australia both Adelaide and Perth have have brand new hospitals built that had big problems.

The Perth Childrens hospital had excessive lead in the water supply (dodgy chinese fittings), aesbestos in the ceiling tiles (dodgy chinese tiles), fire doors that didnt meet the required standard (dodgy Chinese doors) and a raft of other smaller issues.

All of these were eventually fixed by the contractor and the place is now a wonderful, modern facility.

[ruggedscotty]

200bhp said:

Its not a problem that's unique to Scotland. Here in Australia both Adelaide and Perth have have brand new hospitals built that had big problems.

The Perth Childrens hospital had excessive lead in the water supply (dodgy chinese fittings), aesbestos in the ceiling tiles (dodgy chinese tiles), fire doors that didnt meet the required standard (dodgy Chinese doors) and a raft of other smaller issues.

All of these were eventually fixed by the contractor and the place is now a wonderful, modern facility.

who built them ?

[Otispunkmeyer]

ruggedscotty said:

200bhp said:

Its not a problem that's unique to Scotland. Here in Australia both Adelaide and Perth have have brand new hospitals built that had big problems.

The Perth Childrens hospital had excessive lead in the water supply (dodgy chinese fittings), aesbestos in the ceiling tiles (dodgy chinese tiles), fire doors that didnt meet the required standard (dodgy Chinese doors) and a raft of other smaller issues.

All of these were eventually fixed by the contractor and the place is now a wonderful, modern facility.

who built them ?

dodgy Chinese!

[alangla]

200bhp said:

Its not a problem that's unique to Scotland. Here in Australia both Adelaide and Perth have have brand new hospitals built that had big problems.

The Perth Childrens hospital had excessive lead in the water supply (dodgy chinese fittings), aesbestos in the ceiling tiles (dodgy chinese tiles), fire doors that didnt meet the required standard (dodgy Chinese doors) and a raft of other smaller issues.

All of these were eventually fixed by the contractor and the place is now a wonderful, modern facility.

Wouldn't be the same Australian contractor who built the Glasgow & Edinburgh hospitals in question, would it?

[aeropilot]

alangla said:

200bhp said:

Its not a problem that's unique to Scotland. Here in Australia both Adelaide and Perth have have brand new hospitals built that had big problems.

The Perth Childrens hospital had excessive lead in the water supply (dodgy chinese fittings), aesbestos in the ceiling tiles (dodgy chinese tiles), fire doors that didnt meet the required standard (dodgy Chinese doors) and a raft of other smaller issues.

All of these were eventually fixed by the contractor and the place is now a wonderful, modern facility.

Wouldn't be the same Australian contractor who built the Glasgow & Edinburgh hospitals in question, would it?

And Wembley Stadium.......

[200bhp]

ruggedscotty said:

who built them ?

John Holland

[ruggedscotty]

https://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/new-r...

Macquarie Capital Group were involved with the new Royal Adelaide Hospital and....

Macquarie Capital has partnered with Brookfield Multiplex Europe and Bouygues to build and operate the Edinburgh hospital.