Shootings on London Bridge
Discussion
JagLover said:
I think perhaps prison space might be found for dangerous terrorists who want to kill the infidel.....
It isn't, though. People want lower tax, so budgets for prisons, courts, police, and offender management get slashed. Whilst we persist with infantile politics from right and left, we are unlikely to get anywhere. An attempt to characterise this as a simple matter of the Holy Jihadis against we the Infidels may accord with an always simplistic and often binary view of the world, but simplistic views of the world are almost invariably wrong.
Mobile Chicane said:
Jack Merritt's Dad speaks out.
He says;
"#LeadershipDebate points missed (or deliberately avoided by Johnson): we don’t know all the facts about this case yet, and we won’t know for some time - the inquest could take up to 2 years. We don’t know why Khan killed, or what, if anything could have been done differently to prevent it. Let’s have an enquiry, not a witch hunt.
Secondly, there is no justification AT ALL for cutting the early release tariff from a half to a third of sentences for all sentences over 4 years that carry a maximum life sentence; that‘s just trying to look tough on the backs of other prisoners’ suffering; if prisoners have engaged with rehabilitation & turned their lives around, why should they be punished for what Khan did? How will keeping them in for another few years keep public safe if they get released then with the same lack of supervision and support?
The prison education, probation and monitoring services have been cut to the bone, & overcrowding in prisons is inhumane - prisoners don’t win votes unless politicians are promising to be tough on them - but that makes re-offending MORE likely, which makes the public LESS SAFE. Is that what we want? People are being released from prison with nowhere to live, given £47 & told to get on with it. Any guesses how people cope faced with that situation? No prizes.
Corbyn spoke the truth last night. Johnson lied & used our son’s death to make political capital. Wake up Britain: this man is a fraud. He’s the worst of us, & he’s taking you for a ride. You may think the options open to you in this election are not entirely to your liking. Me neither, but I’ll be voting least worst option: anti-Tory.
For all our sakes, and for the future of the country, please, please do the same"
So no one should politicise this well apart from him of course. He says;
"#LeadershipDebate points missed (or deliberately avoided by Johnson): we don’t know all the facts about this case yet, and we won’t know for some time - the inquest could take up to 2 years. We don’t know why Khan killed, or what, if anything could have been done differently to prevent it. Let’s have an enquiry, not a witch hunt.
Secondly, there is no justification AT ALL for cutting the early release tariff from a half to a third of sentences for all sentences over 4 years that carry a maximum life sentence; that‘s just trying to look tough on the backs of other prisoners’ suffering; if prisoners have engaged with rehabilitation & turned their lives around, why should they be punished for what Khan did? How will keeping them in for another few years keep public safe if they get released then with the same lack of supervision and support?
The prison education, probation and monitoring services have been cut to the bone, & overcrowding in prisons is inhumane - prisoners don’t win votes unless politicians are promising to be tough on them - but that makes re-offending MORE likely, which makes the public LESS SAFE. Is that what we want? People are being released from prison with nowhere to live, given £47 & told to get on with it. Any guesses how people cope faced with that situation? No prizes.
Corbyn spoke the truth last night. Johnson lied & used our son’s death to make political capital. Wake up Britain: this man is a fraud. He’s the worst of us, & he’s taking you for a ride. You may think the options open to you in this election are not entirely to your liking. Me neither, but I’ll be voting least worst option: anti-Tory.
For all our sakes, and for the future of the country, please, please do the same"
Edited by Mobile Chicane on Saturday 7th December 14:11
The sad truth is its to late for his son he's dead. It's about trying to stop it happening to someone else's son or daughter.
You do wonder if people like this could ever change their minds and think I may have got this wrong. He's had is own son killed by a poster boy of what him and his son felt was the correct way of doing things. And he's basically just doubling down on it.
poo at Paul's said:
Keoparakolo said:
Oh well, if he’s left wing I’m sure that justifies everything that’s happened to him. Stop attacking the father of a victim, it’s disgraceful.
Honestly, Loon, no one is "attacking" the father, merely pointing out he has a clear agenda and has been pedalling it for a rather long time, and continued to do so sine his son's murder. Whilst I have only just seen the extent of his political opinion, it was clear from his very first statement on the incident that he had one. I am genuinely surprised by his tweeting, I can only think if I were in the dreadful position he is in, I'd have a heck of a lot more to be dealing with than the likes of Twitter. Could it even be that it is not him tweeting and he is busy dealing with sad business of his murdered son's affairs?
As for his call for Boris to not make political mileage. That's a tough one, like it or not, (and he clearly doesn't) Boris IS the Prime Minister and after a terrorist incident, there's a hell of a lot of people that would expect and want him to make statements. And sadly, whilst the father may well be correct that his son would not want more draconian sentences for terrorists, I think his son, (and he) are in the minoroty.
If this killer had gone on trial, the father could make a victim impact statement to ask for clemancy, that's his right. But it could have been any random MOP killed by this idiot last week, and all such people have a right to protection from such idiots.
I haven't heard much if anything from the family of the other person killed, nor from any of the other people attacked. Maybe some of them don't share David Merrit's opinions or sentiment?? His is only one voice, and of course, he can say what he likes the same as you or I, and ask whatever he likes. And anyone else, PM included, can chose to abide by it, or ignore it!
.
When a terrorist act is made prior to an election or significant vote / political event, (like London Bridge, Jo Cox), I EXPECT the relevant political figures to deal with it and say something about it. I may like what they say, or I may not, but for anyone to insist that they do not make their feelings known, is doing a disservice to the rest of us and I would suggest is being rather naïve.
Stop attacking the father. Just because he has a different political outlook to you doesn’t make your comments any less crass.
markcoznottz said:
There is a revolving door between gov- BBC- judiciary-Whitehall- media. With mostly centre left views. Hence the confusion with the Brexit vote. They were genuinely shocked that other people don't see things as they do.
A fine example of a crassly simplistic and almost cartoonish understanding of the World. Where do people get this stuff? OK, I know where they get it from.Breadvan72 said:
JagLover said:
I think perhaps prison space might be found for dangerous terrorists who want to kill the infidel.....
It isn't, though. People want lower tax, so budgets for prisons, courts, police, and offender management get slashed. Whilst we persist with infantile politics from right and left, we are unlikely to get anywhere. An attempt to characterise this as a simple matter of the Holy Jihadis against we the Infidels may accord with an always simplistic and often binary view of the world, but simplistic views of the world are almost invariably wrong.
The sad fact is, there are far too few police and too few prison spaces, so even when they do Nick the bad guys, the sentences cannot be served, because the conveyor belt is processing more custodial sentences than there are spaces for. Hence police and court time is wasted re-processing the same recidivist (often whilst their original jail term is still running) and the public is exposed to unnecessary risk and crime.
As for the current UK terrorism being 'Jihadi' I really cannot profess to know too much about any religion. However, I know for a fact, there are plenty of Muslims who quite happily exist beside the rest of us 'infidels' and, moreover, worldwide, they often tend to bear the brunt of much of the extremist Islamist terror.
There is no doubt, certain official channels of the religion need to be vigilant not to allow malevolent elements to deviate their course, but on the whole, this does seem to be on their radar.
Mobile Chicane said:
Secondly, there is no justification AT ALL for cutting the early release tariff from a half to a third of sentences for all sentences over 4 years that carry a maximum life sentence; that‘s just trying to look tough on the backs of other prisoners’ suffering; if prisoners have engaged with rehabilitation & turned their lives around, why should they be punished for what Khan did? How will keeping them in for another few years keep public safe if they get released then with the same lack of supervision and support?
The prison education, probation and monitoring services have been cut to the bone, & overcrowding in prisons is inhumane - prisoners don’t win votes unless politicians are promising to be tough on them - but that makes re-offending MORE likely, which makes the public LESS SAFE. Is that what we want? People are being released from prison with nowhere to live, given £47 & told to get on with it. Any guesses how people cope faced with that situation? No prizes.
If you remove the politics these two paragraphs contain a very large amount of sense. The prison education, probation and monitoring services have been cut to the bone, & overcrowding in prisons is inhumane - prisoners don’t win votes unless politicians are promising to be tough on them - but that makes re-offending MORE likely, which makes the public LESS SAFE. Is that what we want? People are being released from prison with nowhere to live, given £47 & told to get on with it. Any guesses how people cope faced with that situation? No prizes.
I’d go further to say that if our society was more accepting of the notion people can and do change things would be even better. Were it possible for the majority of those who had served time to come out, be honest about their past and find gainful employment and build a decent social circle like most ordinary people have it would cut reoffending rates.
What actually happens is a few can hide their past and find work, but struggle to be open about who they were. A handful (who are generally decent people who made a mistake) will get out and resume their life a little more thankful for what they have.
Many simply drift back to their old habits, friends who don’t discourage crime and a lifestyle that will only send them one way.
People turn to crime for financial gain or because they’re living at the margins of society. An unfairly divided world creates people who view those around them as other, I’d suspect Usman Khan and those like him didn’t see a place for themselves and were easy targets for the nutters looking to radicalise people, he wouldn’t be a million miles away from the kid who ends up running drugs because he can’t see a route out of his sink estate.
Keeping people safe using longer sentences in underfunded prisons is a remarkably simple idea. It’s massively flawed too but the majority of people are too stupid to see it. If it was the case those who worked in the sector would be saying it, but they’re not and yet somehow the imbeciles who absorb tabloid headlines can’t hear any reasoning they just want revenge.
No matter how many intelligent men and women speak out against the tough on crime rhetoric it will always win political arguments.
Mobile Chicane said:
Quite. But it's completely out of step with Tory lock-em-up-and-throw-away-the-key dogma.
It might be dogma, but it's not what they do. It's lip service. Johnson is after votes. Nothing better than to suggest that such a crime will be stopped, if only he's voted in. He won't change anything. He'll do something, organise a report into stuff, and then he'll accept the findings and do nothing.
Derek Smith said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: And we're back to criticising the victims parents.
Classy.
Did you expect anything else?Classy.
It seems odd for a grieving Father to be posting on social media within a week of his Son's murder, as an example:
'Wake up Britain: this man is a fraud. He’s the worst of us, & he’s taking you for a ride. You may think the options open to you in this election are not entirely to your liking. Me neither, but I’ll be voting least worst option: anti-Tory.'
Salmonofdoubt said:
If you remove the politics these two paragraphs contain a very large amount of sense.
I’d go further to say that if our society was more accepting of the notion people can and do change things would be even better. Were it possible for the majority of those who had served time to come out, be honest about their past and find gainful employment and build a decent social circle like most ordinary people have it would cut reoffending rates.
What actually happens is a few can hide their past and find work, but struggle to be open about who they were. A handful (who are generally decent people who made a mistake) will get out and resume their life a little more thankful for what they have.
Many simply drift back to their old habits, friends who don’t discourage crime and a lifestyle that will only send them one way.
People turn to crime for financial gain or because they’re living at the margins of society. An unfairly divided world creates people who view those around them as other, I’d suspect Usman Khan and those like him didn’t see a place for themselves and were easy targets for the nutters looking to radicalise people, he wouldn’t be a million miles away from the kid who ends up running drugs because he can’t see a route out of his sink estate.
Keeping people safe using longer sentences in underfunded prisons is a remarkably simple idea. It’s massively flawed too but the majority of people are too stupid to see it. If it was the case those who worked in the sector would be saying it, but they’re not and yet somehow the imbeciles who absorb tabloid headlines can’t hear any reasoning they just want revenge.
No matter how many intelligent men and women speak out against the tough on crime rhetoric it will always win political arguments.
Is it just because there's too little hard evidence of *real* improvement from those released from prison, but still living 'at the margins of society'. There will always be those who view their lot as being on the wrong side of a divided world, however hard a civilised society tries to be inclusive, understanding and tolerant. Unless you can change their perception of others by this group I fail to see what more that can be done. Isn't there a group of people who will always feel that they can't see a place for themselves in the UK ?I’d go further to say that if our society was more accepting of the notion people can and do change things would be even better. Were it possible for the majority of those who had served time to come out, be honest about their past and find gainful employment and build a decent social circle like most ordinary people have it would cut reoffending rates.
What actually happens is a few can hide their past and find work, but struggle to be open about who they were. A handful (who are generally decent people who made a mistake) will get out and resume their life a little more thankful for what they have.
Many simply drift back to their old habits, friends who don’t discourage crime and a lifestyle that will only send them one way.
People turn to crime for financial gain or because they’re living at the margins of society. An unfairly divided world creates people who view those around them as other, I’d suspect Usman Khan and those like him didn’t see a place for themselves and were easy targets for the nutters looking to radicalise people, he wouldn’t be a million miles away from the kid who ends up running drugs because he can’t see a route out of his sink estate.
Keeping people safe using longer sentences in underfunded prisons is a remarkably simple idea. It’s massively flawed too but the majority of people are too stupid to see it. If it was the case those who worked in the sector would be saying it, but they’re not and yet somehow the imbeciles who absorb tabloid headlines can’t hear any reasoning they just want revenge.
No matter how many intelligent men and women speak out against the tough on crime rhetoric it will always win political arguments.
don'tbesilly said:
If the tweets that have been quoted in the media are true it's hardly surprising some are criticising the Father.
It seems odd for a grieving Father to be posting on social media within a week of his Son's murder, as an example:
'Wake up Britain: this man is a fraud. He’s the worst of us, & he’s taking you for a ride. You may think the options open to you in this election are not entirely to your liking. Me neither, but I’ll be voting least worst option: anti-Tory.'
It seems odd to you. Perhaps it's his way of coping. Perhaps he's saying what his son would want him to say. Maybe, even, he is so upset by what has happened to his son that he is hitting out. It could be that the Johnson spoutings, trying for a few extra votes, was the last straw. I may never know. I, like you, don't know the reason at the moment. It seems odd for a grieving Father to be posting on social media within a week of his Son's murder, as an example:
'Wake up Britain: this man is a fraud. He’s the worst of us, & he’s taking you for a ride. You may think the options open to you in this election are not entirely to your liking. Me neither, but I’ll be voting least worst option: anti-Tory.'
I wonder if quite so many posters would have been up in arms if he'd thanked Johnson for his intervention.
I suspect the father didn't know what way is to say the moment. He's probably spent a good while listening to his son tell him how the system is broken and the rehabilitation work he wants to be involved in is underfunded, under appreciated and destined to fail without a major change. The father probably found it incredibly glib of the prime minister, leading a party in power for the past 9 years, to proclaim he's now oversight bothered about something that the day before want even in his radar. Those failures, that party, could justifiably, in his eyes, be responsible for the death of house son.
I'm not surprised he would want to hit out, I would.
Do I value his opinion on who should lead the country (whichever way his support leans)? Not really.
I'm not surprised he would want to hit out, I would.
Do I value his opinion on who should lead the country (whichever way his support leans)? Not really.
I live in a safe, supposedly, tory seat. I go for a coffee in Waitrose on Sunday mornings. It gets quite crowded with those not in the first flush of late middle age, and one can't but overhear what people are saying on adjacent tables, especially if one or two have hearing problems as the volume goes up.
Normally, any political conversations revolve around local issues, brexit aside, but today there was some concentration on the father's criticisms of Johnson. One chap had a newspaper and he read something from it and the conversation was one of sympathy for the dad and support for his views on Johnson.
A couple were disgusted - this is not Tunbridge Wells - by his milking of the situation. Corbyn was mentioned and jumping on the bandwagon. One person put in a bit of support for Swinson, but it didn't receive overwhelming support.
So it seems it is a talking point amongst those in one demographic; presumably tory supporters, although that's just a guess.
These old 'uns are quite politically aware, especially with regards to local issues. I've overheard some comments on situations I had no idea about. I heard it first in Waitrose.
Normally, any political conversations revolve around local issues, brexit aside, but today there was some concentration on the father's criticisms of Johnson. One chap had a newspaper and he read something from it and the conversation was one of sympathy for the dad and support for his views on Johnson.
A couple were disgusted - this is not Tunbridge Wells - by his milking of the situation. Corbyn was mentioned and jumping on the bandwagon. One person put in a bit of support for Swinson, but it didn't receive overwhelming support.
So it seems it is a talking point amongst those in one demographic; presumably tory supporters, although that's just a guess.
These old 'uns are quite politically aware, especially with regards to local issues. I've overheard some comments on situations I had no idea about. I heard it first in Waitrose.
Derek Smith said:
I wonder if quite so many posters would have been up in arms if he'd thanked Johnson for his intervention.
Exactly, right wingers criticising the father simply because he’s not supporting Boris. If he was supporting Boris they’d be all over it as evidence of how great their man is.
Pretty depressing TBH but it’s always from the same few posters.
Derek Smith said:
It seems odd to you. Perhaps it's his way of coping. Perhaps he's saying what his son would want him to say. Maybe, even, he is so upset by what has happened to his son that he is hitting out. It could be that the Johnson spoutings, trying for a few extra votes, was the last straw. I may never know. I, like you, don't know the reason at the moment.
I wonder if quite so many posters would have been up in arms if he'd thanked Johnson for his intervention.
I agree. Grief can make people say Lloyd sorts of things. Prior to losing his son, it does not appear the father was the biggest Tory fn, so I am unsure why he is expected to change his stance in the light of his terrible loss.I wonder if quite so many posters would have been up in arms if he'd thanked Johnson for his intervention.
Also, FYI, I had my suspicions confirmed by HypnoToad on the other NP&E (Corbyn) thread; the 'Mobile Chicane' account appears to have been hacked.
El stovey said:
Exactly, right wingers criticising the father simply because he’s not supporting Boris.
If he was supporting Boris they’d be all over it as evidence of how great their man is.
Pretty depressing TBH but it’s always from the same few posters.
Nope.If he was supporting Boris they’d be all over it as evidence of how great their man is.
Pretty depressing TBH but it’s always from the same few posters.
A few questioning why the Father has gone "all political" so soon after his Son's tragic death, you adding of the accusation of political malice and bias towards those asking such questions is just you virtual signalling.
We are in the middle of a general election, OF COURSE it will be discussed. Your virtual signal umbrella is see-though
Dave Merritt has gone "all political" because he's lost his son and has every right to do so.
People have every right to criticise him for it and people have every right to question whether those people would be doing so if he'd been tweeting and writing "Harsher sentences now, vote Boris".
I'm sure people can read Dave Merritt's words and those of people criticising him and form their own conclusions.
Let the poor bloke deal with it in his own way.
People have every right to criticise him for it and people have every right to question whether those people would be doing so if he'd been tweeting and writing "Harsher sentences now, vote Boris".
I'm sure people can read Dave Merritt's words and those of people criticising him and form their own conclusions.
Let the poor bloke deal with it in his own way.
El stovey said:
Derek Smith said:
I wonder if quite so many posters would have been up in arms if he'd thanked Johnson for his intervention.
Exactly, right wingers criticising the father simply because he’s not supporting Boris. If he was supporting Boris they’d be all over it as evidence of how great their man is.
Pretty depressing TBH but it’s always from the same few posters.
I somehow think if that was the case the media wouldn't be plastering his views all over the place. Politicians and media types wouldn't be going "we must listen and respect what the victims wanted". No because that wouldn't fit their narrative would it.
There is a reason why victims families and close friends only play a small or in many cases no roll at all in the search for what happened or what should be done to stop it happening again. Because the vast majority of the time they are overwhelming and driven by emotion. Which stops them from makeing rational decisions.
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