Another young driver crash,sad story, Hamble, Hampshire
Discussion
There's no simple answer. There never was - and lots of people tried - and there probably never will be.
If drivers start later in life, say 21, they'll have more accidents than those of the same age now. They will also tend to have more powerful cars.
The idea behind penalties for learner drivers, and those who've just passed their tests, has proved its use, but sometimes people will have accidents regardless of how difficult it was.
Young people have more accidents than older people. As an aside, it is not only macho posing that causes accidents. Young women have more accidents than men per mile driven. Indeed, women have more accidents than men until they reach 65 when men drive like old women.
If drivers start later in life, say 21, they'll have more accidents than those of the same age now. They will also tend to have more powerful cars.
The idea behind penalties for learner drivers, and those who've just passed their tests, has proved its use, but sometimes people will have accidents regardless of how difficult it was.
Young people have more accidents than older people. As an aside, it is not only macho posing that causes accidents. Young women have more accidents than men per mile driven. Indeed, women have more accidents than men until they reach 65 when men drive like old women.
The questions to be asking about the Hamble crash are not the size of the car, but whether the girl who was killed was wearing her seatbelt, and was the passenger behind her wearing their's?
Having worked prepping for NCAP tests, it was apparent that the size of the car was far from the most significant factor whether an accident was survivable or not. The amount of money invested in design, development and testing was more significant, and often the largest car in a range was less safe than the one below it, simply because the number of sales of a larger car would be lower, so there was less money available for development.
Crash tests do assume the 'target' object will be another car, and simulate this with calibrated aluminium honeycomb on a concrete block, to represent the crumpling that the target car will sustain. Large trees don't crumple, so you're generally on a loser if your side of the car hits one.
I would make a hospital morgue visit and a ride on a crash simulation sled compulsory before issuing a full driving licence, as not much else is going to get the message through to the average teenager.
Having worked prepping for NCAP tests, it was apparent that the size of the car was far from the most significant factor whether an accident was survivable or not. The amount of money invested in design, development and testing was more significant, and often the largest car in a range was less safe than the one below it, simply because the number of sales of a larger car would be lower, so there was less money available for development.
Crash tests do assume the 'target' object will be another car, and simulate this with calibrated aluminium honeycomb on a concrete block, to represent the crumpling that the target car will sustain. Large trees don't crumple, so you're generally on a loser if your side of the car hits one.
I would make a hospital morgue visit and a ride on a crash simulation sled compulsory before issuing a full driving licence, as not much else is going to get the message through to the average teenager.
GliderRider said:
The questions to be asking about the Hamble crash are not the size of the car, but whether the girl who was killed was wearing her seatbelt, and was the passenger behind her wearing their's?
Having worked prepping for NCAP tests, it was apparent that the size of the car was far from the most significant factor whether an accident was survivable or not. The amount of money invested in design, development and testing was more significant, and often the largest car in a range was less safe than the one below it, simply because the number of sales of a larger car would be lower, so there was less money available for development.
Crash tests do assume the 'target' object will be another car, and simulate this with calibrated aluminium honeycomb on a concrete block, to represent the crumpling that the target car will sustain. Large trees don't crumple, so you're generally on a loser if your side of the car hits one.
I would make a hospital morgue visit and a ride on a crash simulation sled compulsory before issuing a full driving licence, as not much else is going to get the message through to the average teenager.
Three years ago my sister was driving a Hyundai I20 (5* NCAP) on a dark country road at 40mph, a focus was coming sideways down the road over a blind brow at well over the speed limit, he hit her and killed her instantly, she was killed by her head hitting the A post that was pushed in. Seat belts on, side air bags deployed etc.Having worked prepping for NCAP tests, it was apparent that the size of the car was far from the most significant factor whether an accident was survivable or not. The amount of money invested in design, development and testing was more significant, and often the largest car in a range was less safe than the one below it, simply because the number of sales of a larger car would be lower, so there was less money available for development.
Crash tests do assume the 'target' object will be another car, and simulate this with calibrated aluminium honeycomb on a concrete block, to represent the crumpling that the target car will sustain. Large trees don't crumple, so you're generally on a loser if your side of the car hits one.
I would make a hospital morgue visit and a ride on a crash simulation sled compulsory before issuing a full driving licence, as not much else is going to get the message through to the average teenager.
Had she been in a bigger car with more of a crumple zone or had been a bit higher then I really do she'd still be here and her little girls would have their mum, all be it with potential life changing injuries.
Cars now are so much bigger, I drive an XC60 and had a Range Rover next to me the other week and noticed how he was still so much higher, to the point if one T boned me most of him would be at window level, an Aygo or similar wouldn't stand a chance.
When my daughter are nieces are old enough to drive there's no way they're going to be a little box, life is just too fragile.
I love the Uber idea, superb parenting!
EddyP said:
Three years ago my sister was driving a Hyundai I20 (5* NCAP) on a dark country road at 40mph, a focus was coming sideways down the road over a blind brow at well over the speed limit, he hit her and killed her instantly, she was killed by her head hitting the A post that was pushed in. Seat belts on, side air bags deployed etc.
Had she been in a bigger car with more of a crumple zone or had been a bit higher then I really do she'd still be here and her little girls would have their mum, all be it with potential life changing injuries.
Cars now are so much bigger, I drive an XC60 and had a Range Rover next to me the other week and noticed how he was still so much higher, to the point if one T boned me most of him would be at window level, an Aygo or similar wouldn't stand a chance.
When my daughter are nieces are old enough to drive there's no way they're going to be a little box, life is just too fragile.
I love the Uber idea, superb parenting!
Sorry for your loss. Particularly at this time of year.Had she been in a bigger car with more of a crumple zone or had been a bit higher then I really do she'd still be here and her little girls would have their mum, all be it with potential life changing injuries.
Cars now are so much bigger, I drive an XC60 and had a Range Rover next to me the other week and noticed how he was still so much higher, to the point if one T boned me most of him would be at window level, an Aygo or similar wouldn't stand a chance.
When my daughter are nieces are old enough to drive there's no way they're going to be a little box, life is just too fragile.
I love the Uber idea, superb parenting!
Whilst I can completely understand why YOU choose to dive a 'big' car - passive safety.......
But.... it's a case of 'might is right'.
Your XC60 would come off better than a Mini in a crash.
But equally a Mini would come off better than a mini.
And your XC60 would come off worse than a Range Rover or, heaven forbid, one of these Nissan Navara type 'trucks' that are so popular at the moment.
The impact damage (kinetic energy) (as thedrbrian said yesterday at 18.19) can be calculated KE= 0.5*Mass*Velocity^2
Big (as in heavy cars) do more damage to lightweight cars.
IMHO there is a good ground for limiting weight for all vehicles. And the limit could be maximum (as in regulated) speed.
ie a 'car' could be defined as being under say 1200kg. And would be governed to say a maximum of 70 on motorway / divided dual carriageway.
A heavy vehicle (over 1200kg) would be governed to a maximum of 60.
One benefit would be that smug Tesla* owners would be relegated to the slower lanes..........
- I say this because on Friday, on the M42, - in a 50mph 'variable speed lane', a Tesla was weaving between the 1st and 3rd lanes overtaking and undertaking - accelerating and breaking.
eldar said:
Around 1,500 people die on the roads, the UK has just about the safest roads in the world.
Around 5,800 people die of suicide.
Around 6,000 people have fatal accidents in the home each year. Over 3,000 people die each year from MRSA / Cdif infections picked up while in hospital. Living is dangerous. Around 5,800 people die of suicide.
Not sure what the answer is for young people in cars, it's always tragic even though the numbers are small in perspective. Road deaths are low in the UK by international comparisons, if we're looking more widely.
In very basic terms, young drivers can't usually afford too much on a car and the cost of insurance will be a major factor too. They are invariably going to choose a small car. As long as they drive sensibly then there should be no serious problems, nobody can avoid the lunatic drunk in a car coming the other way.
With the size and power of some of the bigger cars nowadays there's a massive difference in their relationship with a small car driven by a new driver - but then you can also argue that a small car can just as easily kill cyclists or pedestrians.
With the size and power of some of the bigger cars nowadays there's a massive difference in their relationship with a small car driven by a new driver - but then you can also argue that a small car can just as easily kill cyclists or pedestrians.
EddyP said:
When my daughter are nieces are old enough to drive there's no way they're going to be a little box, life is just too fragile. I love the Uber idea, superb parenting!
Sadly I suspect that even though you mean well, the opposite might be true. Wrapping them in cotton wool and not letting them take their own risks or make their own mistakes will not end well if you want to end up with well rounded children. Suicide is by far the biggest killer of the young and I suspect those children who have led a unfulfilling life absolved of risk, responsibility or adventure might well be the most susceptible. eldar said:
Around 1,500 people die on the roads, the UK has just about the safest roads in the world.
Around 5,800 people die of suicide.
iirc in the 60s/70s deaths were approaching 9k with a 1/3 the number of cars on the road so there has been a massive improvement in general road safety. Now if people could actually drive their cars rather than just sit in them I'm sure the death toll would fall even further. I'm an advocate of mandatory refresher courses every five years.Around 5,800 people die of suicide.
I used to teach law and practice to new traffic officers, this back in the day when the Volvo 7-series had just come out.
For procedure at accidents we had an experienced traffic sergeant and the road safety officer for a part of the force area.
All drove 2-series Volvos.
Over coffee I asked them why the same marque and they all said that they'd never been to a fatal RTA where the occupants of a Volvo 2-series had been killed. They then told me of other traffic officers who drove the same car.
New traffic officers tended to drive BMWs, that sort of thing, but after attending a few RTAs, it seemed that tastes changed.
For procedure at accidents we had an experienced traffic sergeant and the road safety officer for a part of the force area.
All drove 2-series Volvos.
Over coffee I asked them why the same marque and they all said that they'd never been to a fatal RTA where the occupants of a Volvo 2-series had been killed. They then told me of other traffic officers who drove the same car.
New traffic officers tended to drive BMWs, that sort of thing, but after attending a few RTAs, it seemed that tastes changed.
Robertj21a said:
Am I right in saying that it is *still* the young, inexperienced, male drivers that make up a sizeable proportion of deaths/serious injury on our roads - despite changes like more points on the licence, or disqualification, and those insurance black boxes ?
In my experience they don't make up the sizeable proportion of dead/injured, it's their passengers that normally cop it.M4cruiser said:
Sadly another young person has died on our roads (last Thursday, 5th December 2019).
She was 18 years old, and a passenger in a Toyota Aygo. The article doesn't say (yet) the age of the driver and other passengers, but local knowledge is saying they were all young people in the car.
Again I'm wondering the sense in our insurance rules which effectively put young and inexperienced people in small cars with no crumple zones. The Aygo maybe ok for a small car (3 to 4 stars) but these 4 people would surely have been safer in a Mondeo-sized car? There has to be a case for a low bhp larger car, for new drivers.
Some may have a view also on having 4 people in an Aygo at 9pm at night. This may resurrect the "curfew" style arrangements.
I know several young drivers round here who like the Group 1 insurance, and the low tax (CO2) and good fuel economy, but safety seems to come last in the list.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-50...
Our thoughts are with her friends and family. A difficult time for them.
When immature lads get behind the wheelShe was 18 years old, and a passenger in a Toyota Aygo. The article doesn't say (yet) the age of the driver and other passengers, but local knowledge is saying they were all young people in the car.
Again I'm wondering the sense in our insurance rules which effectively put young and inexperienced people in small cars with no crumple zones. The Aygo maybe ok for a small car (3 to 4 stars) but these 4 people would surely have been safer in a Mondeo-sized car? There has to be a case for a low bhp larger car, for new drivers.
Some may have a view also on having 4 people in an Aygo at 9pm at night. This may resurrect the "curfew" style arrangements.
I know several young drivers round here who like the Group 1 insurance, and the low tax (CO2) and good fuel economy, but safety seems to come last in the list.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-50...
Our thoughts are with her friends and family. A difficult time for them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-34...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-26...
Young drivers here in Sweden have a choice of driving a limited vehicle up to 30kph from the age of 15 and then having a full license from 18, I'm sure accidents to happen here from time to time, but I don't think I have heard of a fatality like the ones being mentioned in a very long time. All new drivers have to go on a winter driving course on a frozen skid pan too.
Good explainer vid here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myXWbKgFdOA
Insurance is based on the vehicle not the owner here also
It seems to work pretty well.
Good explainer vid here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myXWbKgFdOA
Insurance is based on the vehicle not the owner here also
It seems to work pretty well.
Canute said:
Young drivers here in Sweden have a choice of driving a limited vehicle up to 30kph from the age of 15 and then having a full license from 18, I'm sure accidents to happen here from time to time, but I don't think I have heard of a fatality like the ones being mentioned in a very long time. All new drivers have to go on a winter driving course on a frozen skid pan too.
Good explainer vid here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myXWbKgFdOA
Insurance is based on the vehicle not the owner here also
It seems to work pretty well.
How many people are killed in Sweden compared to the UK? Good explainer vid here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myXWbKgFdOA
Insurance is based on the vehicle not the owner here also
It seems to work pretty well.
Canute said:
I could find these numbers...
Road Fatalities Per 100,000 vehicles per year...
UK = 5.7
Sweden = 4.6
Bit of a rubbish comparison - why per 100,00 vehicles? Sweden has 4.8 million registered vehicles, pop 10 million. The UK has 32 million vehicles and pop 66.5 million. Road and traffic density will be completely different, UK 250k miles of road Sweden about 9,000.Road Fatalities Per 100,000 vehicles per year...
UK = 5.7
Sweden = 4.6
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