Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9
Discussion
sambucket said:
I ran my business remotely for years from overseas. Highly recommended. However, Tax gets tricky if you have ties to uk still. I’ve got used to paying tax where I live, not where I earn. It’s similar in most countries.
I'm not overly concerned about tax per se, there are various ways to mitigate tax. But having business owners and high earners moving is not good for the sort of society you want to see, and not just from a straight income/corporation tax pov.biggbn said:
Thanks for this answer. I would hazard a guess having browsed this thread for a while that I'm a fair bit more sociaist minded than Sambucket, but am also a realist. Scotland would need to build a strong hybrid system to ensure it could pay for its left leaning policies and encourage jobs and business. Other European countries manage to
Because they accept high taxes. I suspect most of Scotland only really wants high taxes on someone else. And that just doesn't work, because as above, the someone else will f
k off. It's certainly never been mooted that everyone will be paying more in the Democratic Socialist Republic of Scotland. The impression is it'll be champagne on lemonade money, so it's high time the SNP got honest but I'll not hold my breath on that one.technodup said:
sambucket said:
I ran my business remotely for years from overseas. Highly recommended. However, Tax gets tricky if you have ties to uk still. I’ve got used to paying tax where I live, not where I earn. It’s similar in most countries.
I'm not overly concerned about tax per se, there are various ways to mitigate tax. But having business owners and high earners moving is not good for the sort of society you want to see, and not just from a straight income/corporation tax pov.biggbn said:
Thanks for this answer. I would hazard a guess having browsed this thread for a while that I'm a fair bit more sociaist minded than Sambucket, but am also a realist. Scotland would need to build a strong hybrid system to ensure it could pay for its left leaning policies and encourage jobs and business. Other European countries manage to
Because they accept high taxes. I suspect most of Scotland only really wants high taxes on someone else. And that just doesn't work, because as above, the someone else will fk off. It's certainly never been mooted that everyone will be paying more in the Democratic Socialist Republic of Scotland. The impression is it'll be champagne on lemonade money, so it's high time the SNP got honest but I'll not hold my breath on that one.biggbn said:
Again, we seem broadly in agreement!!
It's the dishonesty that annoys me. I'm perfectly happy to accept someone wanting independence, for whatever reason. But if you're going to promote it be honest about the realities. I'm opposed obviously, but having said that I'm a greedy selfish bd like we all are, so if a genuine case was offered that was realistic and suggested I would end up better off I might switch. I can't see that ever happening though, either in the sense of it being realistic or the SNP delivering the message in a persuasive way.They are (currently) managers. Pretty poor ones at that. Sturgeon is a functionary, whereas Salmond was more of a leader. Much better at the vision and big picture stuff, more in tune with business too. Sturgeon doesn't have it to engage, she isn't interested in business. For her money comes as a big cheque from London, and despite her protestations to the contrary I think that suits her just fine.
I watched Sunderland Til I Die recently and they're a financial basket case. Commercial side almost non existent, why? Because they had a billionaire owner who wrote a cheque at the end of every month to pay the bills. No incentive and no interest in generating income themselves. the parallel with Scotland was obvious.
sambucket said:
Its definitely a mixed bag. It would be good to see some serious commitment to things like raising taxes. Removing tax breaks for private schools. Improving Childcare.
How about removing tax breaks for The Scottish Wildlife Trust, Kidney Kids Scotland, Tayside Mountain Rescue Association, Edinburgh Young Carers Project etc while you're at it? They're all charities as well, so why target private schools? Sounds like politics of envy.I had a similar discussion with Edinburger a few months ago who hadn't realised that some (if not most) private schools have a charitable status for various reasons. I was mainly speaking about George Heriot's which was set up to educate the city's orphans. As well as providing education these days for full fee-paying families, they also provide bursaries for children who are intelligent enough to make the grade but whose parents cannot afford the full fees. They still support orphaned children as well.
Surely taking some of the load off council schools can't be a bad thing?
pquinn said:
Power without responsibility. Or bills.
I posted this previously...but it fits with todays conversation...Some recent thoughts on SNP for you...I actually think the SNP as they are now are $hitting themselves at the prospect of independence. Their laughable reliance on oil, Europe and retaining the UK currency and much of its infrastructure means any yes vote would make their vision unsustainable. They like being big fish in our small pond, kingmakers if needs be, but about as relevant to the rest of the uk as, ironically, the DUP. They play at being a government in the full knowledge that they have UK Inc. to fall back on, and if possible blame, when things go wrong. To make an analogy, its like having an electric car with a petrol engine back up like the older BMW i3. The electric works brilliantly for a short time but then fails so you have to rely on the very thing you hate to get you home. Alternatively, just plan your journey better and make suitable, sustainable adaptations. Are you listening Nicola? Gbn
csd19 said:
How about removing tax breaks for The Scottish Wildlife Trust, Kidney Kids Scotland, Tayside Mountain Rescue Association, Edinburgh Young Carers Project etc while you're at it? They're all charities as well, so why target private schools? Sounds like politics of envy.
I had a similar discussion with Edinburger a few months ago who hadn't realised that some (if not most) private schools have a charitable status for various reasons. I was mainly speaking about George Heriot's which was set up to educate the city's orphans. As well as providing education these days for full fee-paying families, they also provide bursaries for children who are intelligent enough to make the grade but whose parents cannot afford the full fees. They still support orphaned children as well.
Surely taking some of the load off council schools can't be a bad thing?
I’m sure there are counters to this, but finland tops Pisa and has no private schools. I love that Nordic stuff. I had a similar discussion with Edinburger a few months ago who hadn't realised that some (if not most) private schools have a charitable status for various reasons. I was mainly speaking about George Heriot's which was set up to educate the city's orphans. As well as providing education these days for full fee-paying families, they also provide bursaries for children who are intelligent enough to make the grade but whose parents cannot afford the full fees. They still support orphaned children as well.
Surely taking some of the load off council schools can't be a bad thing?
I was a supply teacher for a couple of years. From prisons right up to private schools. Private schools do not improve local comps to my eyes. There will always be a few limited beneficiaries of small charities, but I believe in setting education policy at a national level.
It's good to see some actual agreement, discussion and even some (small patches of) common ground appearing here.
The biggest problem I've found with politics, both on social media and discussion in general is that far too many people seem to pick a side and attack their "opponents". Any questioning of any section of one sides work/ policy sees you deemed the enemy.
I worry about anyone who fully trusts any political party!
I can understand the desire for independence so long as it is being discussed honestly, with a realistic point of view on the outcomes and TBH have more respect for the desire of independence out of the UK and the EU. Going for independence and then immediately applying to rejoin the EU to me always seemed to defy the whole point of it!
I'd said before that if they had a realistic point of view, the SNP could have got onside with Brexit seeing as independence would mean leaving the EU by default, Brexit in effect would have done a very small part of their work for them while also making them look a bit less antagonistic.
However, my opinion on indy is that there are very large risks with it which make Brexit look like small fry and I've not seen anything to convince me that they are even being considered as risks, let alone a plan for dealing with them, which is why it's a no for me.
The biggest problem I've found with politics, both on social media and discussion in general is that far too many people seem to pick a side and attack their "opponents". Any questioning of any section of one sides work/ policy sees you deemed the enemy.
I worry about anyone who fully trusts any political party!
I can understand the desire for independence so long as it is being discussed honestly, with a realistic point of view on the outcomes and TBH have more respect for the desire of independence out of the UK and the EU. Going for independence and then immediately applying to rejoin the EU to me always seemed to defy the whole point of it!
I'd said before that if they had a realistic point of view, the SNP could have got onside with Brexit seeing as independence would mean leaving the EU by default, Brexit in effect would have done a very small part of their work for them while also making them look a bit less antagonistic.
However, my opinion on indy is that there are very large risks with it which make Brexit look like small fry and I've not seen anything to convince me that they are even being considered as risks, let alone a plan for dealing with them, which is why it's a no for me.
Ian974 said:
It's good to see some actual agreement, discussion and even some (small patches of) common ground appearing here.
The biggest problem I've found with politics, both on social media and discussion in general is that far too many people seem to pick a side and attack their "opponents". Any questioning of any section of one sides work/ policy sees you deemed the enemy.
I worry about anyone who fully trusts any political party!
I can understand the desire for independence so long as it is being discussed honestly, with a realistic point of view on the outcomes and TBH have more respect for the desire of independence out of the UK and the EU. Going for independence and then immediately applying to rejoin the EU to me always seemed to defy the whole point of it!
I'd said before that if they had a realistic point of view, the SNP could have got onside with Brexit seeing as independence would mean leaving the EU by default, Brexit in effect would have done a very small part of their work for them while also making them look a bit less antagonistic.
However, my opinion on indy is that there are very large risks with it which make Brexit look like small fry and I've not seen anything to convince me that they are even being considered as risks, let alone a plan for dealing with them, which is why it's a no for me.
Nice Post, thanks man. The biggest problem I've found with politics, both on social media and discussion in general is that far too many people seem to pick a side and attack their "opponents". Any questioning of any section of one sides work/ policy sees you deemed the enemy.
I worry about anyone who fully trusts any political party!
I can understand the desire for independence so long as it is being discussed honestly, with a realistic point of view on the outcomes and TBH have more respect for the desire of independence out of the UK and the EU. Going for independence and then immediately applying to rejoin the EU to me always seemed to defy the whole point of it!
I'd said before that if they had a realistic point of view, the SNP could have got onside with Brexit seeing as independence would mean leaving the EU by default, Brexit in effect would have done a very small part of their work for them while also making them look a bit less antagonistic.
However, my opinion on indy is that there are very large risks with it which make Brexit look like small fry and I've not seen anything to convince me that they are even being considered as risks, let alone a plan for dealing with them, which is why it's a no for me.
sambucket said:
csd19 said:
How about removing tax breaks for The Scottish Wildlife Trust, Kidney Kids Scotland, Tayside Mountain Rescue Association, Edinburgh Young Carers Project etc while you're at it? They're all charities as well, so why target private schools? Sounds like politics of envy.
I had a similar discussion with Edinburger a few months ago who hadn't realised that some (if not most) private schools have a charitable status for various reasons. I was mainly speaking about George Heriot's which was set up to educate the city's orphans. As well as providing education these days for full fee-paying families, they also provide bursaries for children who are intelligent enough to make the grade but whose parents cannot afford the full fees. They still support orphaned children as well.
Surely taking some of the load off council schools can't be a bad thing?
I’m sure there are counters to this, but finland tops Pisa and has no private schools. I love that Nordic stuff. I had a similar discussion with Edinburger a few months ago who hadn't realised that some (if not most) private schools have a charitable status for various reasons. I was mainly speaking about George Heriot's which was set up to educate the city's orphans. As well as providing education these days for full fee-paying families, they also provide bursaries for children who are intelligent enough to make the grade but whose parents cannot afford the full fees. They still support orphaned children as well.
Surely taking some of the load off council schools can't be a bad thing?
I was a supply teacher for a couple of years. From prisons right up to private schools. Private schools do not improve local comps to my eyes. There will always be a few limited beneficiaries of small charities, but I believe in setting education policy at a national level.
Would it be an attempt to make everything "fair" by dragging everyone down to the same level? Overfilled classrooms where the brighter kids are missing out as they don't get challenged at all, and lessons are disrupted by the kids who don't want to be there?
If parents want to make sacrifices to send their kids to private school, to avoid the shambles the education sector is now in, that's up to them. Surely as a parent yourself you appreciate that? As I've previously said, parents can get financial assistance for places if their kids are bright enough.
sambucket said:
but finland tops Pisa and has no private schools.
So, scrap private schools and PISA rankings will rise - typical politician's logic.
What Finland does have that Scotland doesn't is average class sizes of 20, strangely enough something the SNP pledged to copy in their 2007 Holyrood manifesto (when they weren't expecting to win) then backtracked on two years later and scrapped completely not long after.
It is quite entertaining to see when people only take a close interest in Scottish politics since 2014 that they fail to appreciate that the SNP have been screwing things up pretty much from day one, not just since their failed referendum put them into permanently distracted campaigning mode for a re-run.
The SNP are taking the same approach to imitating Finnish education as they did to Finnish healthcare - copying just bits of it yet expecting the complete effect.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 7th July 21:59
Ian974 said:
Regarding taxes on private schools, they had their charitable status removed in Scotland, effective from this September I gather? Increases in business rates etc.
No, their business rates discount from their charitable status was removed - despite objections from OSCR (Scottish Charity Regulator). Most private schools remain charities and have passed tests to re-affirm their status.It's a wonderfully perverse argument to complain about tax breaks for private education, when it saves the government far more than it receives. Equally ironic is the apparent increase in enquiries to private schools on the back of the Scottish Government's disastrous education management.
Ian974 said:
Regarding taxes on private schools, they had their charitable status removed in Scotland, effective from this September I gather? Increases in business rates etc.
That's been pushed out to April 2021 as I understand it? Due to the impact of Covid-19. And I think that special needs schools will continue to benefit from the current lower rates.The not-so-hidden-if-you-think-about-it drawback against removing private schools charitable status is that perhaps as much as 60% of families could not afford the increase in subsequent school fees so those children would become encumbent upon state schools and resources and thus dilute those resources across the board.
I really only mentioned it as an example of a progressive policy that snp has postponed. I would like to see firm commitments to this kind of thing and raising taxes etc too.
The arguments for and against can all be found in the left vs right playbooks.
The arguments for and against can all be found in the left vs right playbooks.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th July 22:11
sambucket said:
I really only mentioned it as an example of a progressive policy that SNP has postponed.
How can it be justified as progressive? Is that not just a fig-leaf for the politics of envy?Plus - the elephant in the room (remember I am privy to this sort of info) - private schools in Scotland achieve a lot more on significantly smaller average budgets than state schools (when PFI debt-servicing is factored in).
There are several school buildings in my division alone that are not sustainable on the number of pupils attending but are kept open just because even if they were closed down the financial obligations in place under the PFI contracts would be the same (until the year 2037).
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 7th July 22:21
sambucket said:
I really only mentioned it as an example of a progressive policy that snp has postponed. I would like to see firm commitments to this kind of thing and raising taxes etc too.
The arguments for and against can all be found in the left vs right playbooks.
I'm genuinely interested Sam so please don't take my posts as personal slights or attacks. The arguments for and against can all be found in the left vs right playbooks.
Edited by sambucket on Tuesday 7th July 22:11
Why do you want to see an increase in taxes, and which tax bracket are you wanting the increases on? Tax increases should be across the board if they are going to happen, as that is then "fair".
And what sort of progression are you expecting to see by (potentially) having more children join state schools when class sizes are far in excess of Finland (going from your example) and much larger than promised by the SNP?
As you are in an Edinburgh bubble, do you know anyone who has their children in private education?
Evercross said:
sambucket said:
I really only mentioned it as an example of a progressive policy that SNP has postponed.
How can it be justified as progressive? Is that not just a fig-leaf for the politics of envy?Plus - the elephant in the room (remember I am privy to this sort of info) - private schools in Scotland achieve a lot more on significantly smaller average budgets than state schools (when PFI debt-servicing is factored in).
There are several school buildings in my division alone that are not sustainable on the number of pupils attending but are kept open just because even if they were closed down the financial obligations incurred would be the same (until the year 2037).
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 7th July 22:19
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