Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 9
Discussion
As a long-time lurker and occasional contributor, I have to say that 'burger has never been shouty or rude to other contributors - something that happens a lot on this thread. He is clear, calm and polite.
However, I think his debating style is either stunningly poor or deliberately designed to enrage. Typical behaviours I have noted over the years:
Evercross (apt username) takes the bait far too often.
However, I think his debating style is either stunningly poor or deliberately designed to enrage. Typical behaviours I have noted over the years:
- Fly-by "this is interesting" posts (when it isn't).
- Avoiding difficult questions and then claiming they were never asked.
- Failing to back up claims with evidence despite stating that he has it.
- "Squirrel" distractions when he is called out...
- ... or just posting the rolleyes emoji as though it meant something.
- Disappearing when he is proven wrong...
- ...only to reappear when the coast is clear and carrying on as though he was right all along.
- Claiming ignorance of inconvenient facts...
- ...yet has comprehensive knowledge of far more obscure pro-SNP arguments.
- Uncritical support for GERS when it supports his argument...
- ...but claims "no-one knows" when it doesn't.
- Claims the Scottish tax take is unknowable even when others prove that it very much is.
- Arguing for independence but failing to explain the basic economics of it despite being in finance.
Evercross (apt username) takes the bait far too often.
AstonZagato said:
As a long-time lurker and occasional contributor, I have to say that 'burger has never been shouty or rude to other contributors - something that happens a lot on this thread. He is clear, calm and polite.
However, I think his debating style is either stunningly poor or deliberately designed to enrage. Typical behaviours I have noted over the years:
Evercross (apt username) takes the bait far too often.
Quite succinct.However, I think his debating style is either stunningly poor or deliberately designed to enrage. Typical behaviours I have noted over the years:
- Fly-by "this is interesting" posts (when it isn't).
- Avoiding difficult questions and then claiming they were never asked.
- Failing to back up claims with evidence despite stating that he has it.
- "Squirrel" distractions when he is called out...
- ... or just posting the rolleyes emoji as though it meant something.
- Disappearing when he is proven wrong...
- ...only to reappear when the coast is clear and carrying on as though he was right all along.
- Claiming ignorance of inconvenient facts...
- ...yet has comprehensive knowledge of far more obscure pro-SNP arguments.
- Uncritical support for GERS when it supports his argument...
- ...but claims "no-one knows" when it doesn't.
- Claims the Scottish tax take is unknowable even when others prove that it very much is.
- Arguing for independence but failing to explain the basic economics of it despite being in finance.
Evercross (apt username) takes the bait far too often.
In my mind 'burgher is a SNP cardholder sent by the mothership to monitor and spread disinformation.
AstonZagato said:
- ...Claiming ignorance of inconvenient facts...
- ...yet has comprehensive knowledge of far more obscure pro-SNP arguments.
Edinburger said:
I just won't know as much about this as you because I'm not obsessed with the SNP. Simples.
...especially when viewed in context with this little aperitif following a few posts later.Edinburger said:
That's all interesting, but it flies in the face of what grassroots members and party activists say?
One who is not 'obsessed' with the SNP, yet has a working seemingly in depth knowledge of what the opinions of grassroots members and party activists are. Hmmm. The man who commissioned the infamous and nauseating "Thank you Nicola" featuring young children, worthy of a place in the North Korean propaganda Hall of Fame, has resigned from STV citing 'metal health reasons'.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18830810.stv-n...
Article said:
The head of news at STV has resigned after being investigated over allegations of misconduct. Steven Ladurantaye, who was recruited to head the broadcaster's Glasgow newsroom two years ago, was suspended earlier this month when the claims emerged. Following a report in The Times, The Herald understands that the allegations involved complaints from multiple female members of staff. STV has now confirmed that Ladurantaye will step down, citing “mental health reasons”.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18830810.stv-n...
deadslow said:
which party do you support. If you wont say, please give over with the above nonsense.
I answered you that question a couple of pages ago (as did others). Nationalism isn't a party-political issue - just ask the Greens.....AstonZagato said:
Evercross (apt username) takes the bait far too often.
It was chosen for a reason. 
I think you credit burger with too much intelligence. Never attribute conspiracy when it is probably cock-up.
AstonZagato said:
If I'm wrong, his brain is very oddly wired.
Closer to the mark I reckon. Being a troll (even a gentle one) isn't exactly the lesser of two evils though (and basically amounts to the same thing ie. not quite wired up correctly)!Roderick Spode said:
The man who commissioned the infamous and nauseating "Thank you Nicola" featuring young children, worthy of a place in the North Korean propaganda Hall of Fame, has resigned from STV citing 'metal health reasons'.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18830810.stv-n...
Who did he take his lessons in accepting responsibility for his actions from? Derek MacKay?Article said:
The head of news at STV has resigned after being investigated over allegations of misconduct. Steven Ladurantaye, who was recruited to head the broadcaster's Glasgow newsroom two years ago, was suspended earlier this month when the claims emerged. Following a report in The Times, The Herald understands that the allegations involved complaints from multiple female members of staff. STV has now confirmed that Ladurantaye will step down, citing “mental health reasons”.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18830810.stv-n...
Edited by Evercross on Thursday 29th October 19:38
Evercross said:
Roderick Spode said:
The man who commissioned the infamous and nauseating "Thank you Nicola" featuring young children, worthy of a place in the North Korean propaganda Hall of Fame, has resigned from STV citing 'metal health reasons'.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18830810.stv-n...
Who did he take his lessons in accepting responsibility for his actions from? Derek MacKay?Article said:
The head of news at STV has resigned after being investigated over allegations of misconduct. Steven Ladurantaye, who was recruited to head the broadcaster's Glasgow newsroom two years ago, was suspended earlier this month when the claims emerged. Following a report in The Times, The Herald understands that the allegations involved complaints from multiple female members of staff. STV has now confirmed that Ladurantaye will step down, citing “mental health reasons”.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18830810.stv-n...
vikingaero said:
AstonZagato said:
As a long-time lurker and occasional contributor, I have to say that 'burger has never been shouty or rude to other contributors - something that happens a lot on this thread. He is clear, calm and polite.
However, I think his debating style is either stunningly poor or deliberately designed to enrage. Typical behaviours I have noted over the years:
Evercross (apt username) takes the bait far too often.
Quite succinct.However, I think his debating style is either stunningly poor or deliberately designed to enrage. Typical behaviours I have noted over the years:
- Fly-by "this is interesting" posts (when it isn't).
- Avoiding difficult questions and then claiming they were never asked.
- Failing to back up claims with evidence despite stating that he has it.
- "Squirrel" distractions when he is called out...
- ... or just posting the rolleyes emoji as though it meant something.
- Disappearing when he is proven wrong...
- ...only to reappear when the coast is clear and carrying on as though he was right all along.
- Claiming ignorance of inconvenient facts...
- ...yet has comprehensive knowledge of far more obscure pro-SNP arguments.
- Uncritical support for GERS when it supports his argument...
- ...but claims "no-one knows" when it doesn't.
- Claims the Scottish tax take is unknowable even when others prove that it very much is.
- Arguing for independence but failing to explain the basic economics of it despite being in finance.
Evercross (apt username) takes the bait far too often.
In my mind 'burgher is a SNP cardholder sent by the mothership to monitor and spread disinformation.
" The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. "
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-founda...
lothianJim said:
Is nationalism party political? Interesting question. Separatism probably leans left, historically, in more cases than not?
Welcome to the thread!
I agree about separatism being left leaning, but there's plenty evidence to suggest that the SNP simply stole the left's clothes so they could masquerade as the antidote to failed Labour in Scotland (see 'Tartan Tories' earlier), plus the SNP don't like it when anyone mentions founding member Andrew Dewar Gibb and his admission of (and I quote) 'fascist leanings', or former chairman Arthur Donaldson who plotted to form a puppet government in Scotland that would capitulate to the Nazis because he wanted to see England defeated in WW2.
It is comical when that Muppets reject Green Party list MSP Ross Greer talks so disparagingly about historical figure Winston Churchill, yet will throw his hat into the ring at any opportunity with a party that can lay claim to such a chequered history of its own.
Edited by Evercross on Thursday 29th October 19:54
irc said:
Go easy. He can't help it.
" The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. "
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-founda...
It's called cognitive dissonance. Nobody is immune. " The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. "
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-founda...
Watch that dinner table conversation.
" Humza Yousaf told the Scottish parliament’s justice committee that, unlike that existing law, his bill will have no ‘dwelling defence’. This would mean that people in Scotland can be probed by police and prosecuted even for things they say in the privacy of their own homes.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/29/sending-t...
" Humza Yousaf told the Scottish parliament’s justice committee that, unlike that existing law, his bill will have no ‘dwelling defence’. This would mean that people in Scotland can be probed by police and prosecuted even for things they say in the privacy of their own homes.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/29/sending-t...
I'm going to say it again, and a bit more controversially.
Humza Useless is abusing his position as Cabinet Secretary for Justice (because he thinks that makes him a lawyer now) to pass a law that might buy the Muslim vote for the SNP/Nationalists/separatists. (C) Effie Deans.
I repeat - he has failed to take into account that Anas Sarwar is a better MSP than him, has a bigger following, and is more intelligent than him.
Humza Useless is abusing his position as Cabinet Secretary for Justice (because he thinks that makes him a lawyer now) to pass a law that might buy the Muslim vote for the SNP/Nationalists/separatists. (C) Effie Deans.
I repeat - he has failed to take into account that Anas Sarwar is a better MSP than him, has a bigger following, and is more intelligent than him.
Here we have yet another Civil Servant correcting their evidence to the Salmond enquiry via letter, after first giving the easy answer in person, and thus avoiding a difficult and uncomfortable line of questioning in person. Do these people think we all button up the back? If this committee had real teeth, and wasn't packed full of Sturgeon-sympathetic stooges, these people would be recalled to resubmit their evidence in person.
Article said:
At the Holyrood inquiry this week, Mackinnon was asked by Labour MSP Jackie Baillie whether she told either of the complainants she was going to be the investigating officer.
She replied: “I did not. I did not tell them that. At that point in time, I did not know that that would be the case.”
However, she has now corrected this part of her evidence. In a letter to the Committee, she wrote: “I have inadvertently provided an incorrect response to a question asked by Ms Baillie about whether I had advised any of the complainants that I was going to be appointed as the Investigating Officer prior to that appointment being confirmed.
"I am writing to you now at the first opportunity to correct the record.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/civil-servant-apologises-salmond-inquiry-22925569.ampShe replied: “I did not. I did not tell them that. At that point in time, I did not know that that would be the case.”
However, she has now corrected this part of her evidence. In a letter to the Committee, she wrote: “I have inadvertently provided an incorrect response to a question asked by Ms Baillie about whether I had advised any of the complainants that I was going to be appointed as the Investigating Officer prior to that appointment being confirmed.
"I am writing to you now at the first opportunity to correct the record.
lothianJim said:
Is nationalism party political? Interesting question. Separatism probably leans left, historically, in more cases than not?
Nationalism is fairly right-wing in nature I'd say- it majors on national identity, mythos, achievements, exceptionalism, symbolism, culture, and primacy among other cultures. Socialism and communism are/were fairly global movements based on the shared lot of the working class in Europe and tended to play down (or actively destroy in some cases) differences except those of the class system which it turned up to 11!.
I'm not sure if seperatism can be said to have a particular left/right dimension unless it's convenient, though. If we were under Corbyn and he was spending like... well like Boris, the argument could well be made that we were being milked to pay for a failed socialist experiment and that we could be a cold Singapore if we were freed from our shackles and given the levers we need. If you independence is your goal, then everything looks like a reason to leave.
I think part of the problem we face these days is that few of us have or even understand the various ideologies out there, but know that we're unhappy and want "change". Whether change is right or left probably depends on your own view of where the present sits.
glazbagun said:
lothianJim said:
Is nationalism party political? Interesting question. Separatism probably leans left, historically, in more cases than not?
Nationalism is fairly right-wing in nature I'd say- it majors on national identity, mythos, achievements, exceptionalism, symbolism, culture, and primacy among other cultures. Socialism and communism are/were fairly global movements based on the shared lot of the working class in Europe and tended to play down (or actively destroy in some cases) differences except those of the class system which it turned up to 11!.
I'm not sure if seperatism can be said to have a particular left/right dimension unless it's convenient, though. If we were under Corbyn and he was spending like... well like Boris, the argument could well be made that we were being milked to pay for a failed socialist experiment and that we could be a cold Singapore if we were freed from our shackles and given the levers we need. If you independence is your goal, then everything looks like a reason to leave.
I think part of the problem we face these days is that few of us have or even understand the various ideologies out there, but know that we're unhappy and want "change". Whether change is right or left probably depends on your own view of where the present sits.
"Hoffer argues that fanatical and extremist cultural movements, whether religious, social, or national, arise when large numbers of frustrated people, believing their own individual lives to be worthless or spoiled, join a movement demanding radical change. But the real attraction for this population is an escape from the self, not a realization of individual hopes: "A mass movement attracts and holds a following not because it can satisfy the desire for self-advancement, but because it can satisfy the passion for self-renunciation."[23]
Hoffer consequently argues that the appeal of mass movements is interchangeable: in the Germany of the 1920s and the 1930s, for example, the Communists and National Socialists were ostensibly enemies, but sometimes enlisted each other's members, since they competed for the same kind of marginalized, angry, frustrated people. For the "true believer," Hoffer argues that particular beliefs are less important than escaping from the burden of the autonomous self."
andy_s said:
glazbagun said:
lothianJim said:
Is nationalism party political? Interesting question. Separatism probably leans left, historically, in more cases than not?
Nationalism is fairly right-wing in nature I'd say- it majors on national identity, mythos, achievements, exceptionalism, symbolism, culture, and primacy among other cultures. Socialism and communism are/were fairly global movements based on the shared lot of the working class in Europe and tended to play down (or actively destroy in some cases) differences except those of the class system which it turned up to 11!.
I'm not sure if seperatism can be said to have a particular left/right dimension unless it's convenient, though. If we were under Corbyn and he was spending like... well like Boris, the argument could well be made that we were being milked to pay for a failed socialist experiment and that we could be a cold Singapore if we were freed from our shackles and given the levers we need. If you independence is your goal, then everything looks like a reason to leave.
I think part of the problem we face these days is that few of us have or even understand the various ideologies out there, but know that we're unhappy and want "change". Whether change is right or left probably depends on your own view of where the present sits.
"Hoffer argues that fanatical and extremist cultural movements, whether religious, social, or national, arise when large numbers of frustrated people, believing their own individual lives to be worthless or spoiled, join a movement demanding radical change. But the real attraction for this population is an escape from the self, not a realization of individual hopes: "A mass movement attracts and holds a following not because it can satisfy the desire for self-advancement, but because it can satisfy the passion for self-renunciation."[23]
Hoffer consequently argues that the appeal of mass movements is interchangeable: in the Germany of the 1920s and the 1930s, for example, the Communists and National Socialists were ostensibly enemies, but sometimes enlisted each other's members, since they competed for the same kind of marginalized, angry, frustrated people. For the "true believer," Hoffer argues that particular beliefs are less important than escaping from the burden of the autonomous self."
biggbn said:
Should we perhaps look at why the conditions that engender such feelings exist.
Well this type of thing has to be responsible for why some of those feelings exist. Maybe some day we will have a governmentthat cares more about sexually abused children than offending the abusers. So yeah lets really start looking into this
and protecting innocent children, we might as well start with one of the most abhorrent issues, discuss....
https://www.glasgowchildprotection.org.uk/CHttpHan...
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