Are the Police Service fit for purpose anymore?
Discussion
Elroy Blue said:
Please do write to your MP and demand that the Police shouldn't be spending 80% of their time dealing with mental health cases, shouldn't be responsible for every teenager whose late getting back to their children's home every evening, shouldn't be responsible for the welfare of every homeless person, then perhaps we might have more time to spend on actual crime. You might actually achieve something more than you would venting on PH
Good point. Letters are nearly always read, and often receive a reply too. No idea how much difference it makes, but we live in a democracy after all. https://www.writetothem.com/
Agammemnon said:
turbobloke said:
The rot starts at the top, front line officers follow orders and have the s
tty end of the job.
The Nuremberg trials clearly established that following orders isn't acceptable defence for wrong behaviour.tty end of the job.Elroy Blue said:
Please do write to your MP and demand that the Police shouldn't be spending 80% of their time dealing with mental health cases, shouldn't be responsible for every teenager whose late getting back to their children's home every evening, shouldn't be responsible for the welfare of every homeless person, then perhaps we might have more time to spend on actual crime. You might actually achieve something more than you would venting on PH
Venting or discussing? Venting makes it look like an emotive/irrational response, when the responses so far are reasonable and justified. Check out the responses to that Cambs Police XR tweet if you think it's OK, it's certainly not OK to lose the confidence and support of such a large proportion of the public. Many won't have the time to respond to tweets, so it's likely an underestimate of the tide of local dissatisfaction.
Fair point about writing to MPs, however, when police are occupied by protests in the 20% of their time not spent dealing with mental health issues etc, it's not compulsory to get it wrong as seen recently in Cambridge.
There will be no changing of minds on this thread I suspect!
For any current or previous police officers who may be reading what is surely going to follow with a mixture of incredulity, sadness and confusion I’d like to send one message:
Thank you for the selfless, difficult job you do keeping me and my family safe.
For any current or previous police officers who may be reading what is surely going to follow with a mixture of incredulity, sadness and confusion I’d like to send one message:
Thank you for the selfless, difficult job you do keeping me and my family safe.
Agammemnon said:
turbobloke said:
The rot starts at the top, front line officers follow orders and have the stty end of the job.
The Nuremberg trials clearly established that following orders isn't acceptable defence for wrong behaviour.tty end of the job.You need help. You really do.
TPSA7514 said:
LordGrover said:
alfaman said:
The cambridge incident is a complete disgrace. Standing by while a bunch of anarchists cause criminal damage, and block the highway.
Youtube response.turbobloke said:
Check out the responses to that Cambs Police XR tweet if you think it's OK, it's certainly not OK to lose the confidence and support of such a large proportion of the public. Many won't have the time to respond to tweets, so it's likely an underestimate of the tide of local dissatisfaction.
7 people have been arrested, the police are doing their job, no? I wouldn't make any judgements about anything said on twitter, the place is full of people who think they are important and their voice should be herd, whereas in reality most of the people on there have opinions which are nonsense, and the vast majority of the population carries on as normal.
Red 4 said:
Agammemnon said:
turbobloke said:
The rot starts at the top, front line officers follow orders and have the stty end of the job.
The Nuremberg trials clearly established that following orders isn't acceptable defence for wrong behaviour.tty end of the job.You need help. You really do.
If 'just following orders' is rightly seen as unacceptable, then it's the principle that matters, not an event selected by another PHer to illustrate it. Selecting that event is natural as it's well-known.
Did you have anything material to add in response to Agammemnon's point? For example do you think that 'just following orders' is OK these days?
turbobloke said:
Red 4 said:
Agammemnon said:
turbobloke said:
The rot starts at the top, front line officers follow orders and have the stty end of the job.
The Nuremberg trials clearly established that following orders isn't acceptable defence for wrong behaviour.tty end of the job.You need help. You really do.
If 'just following orders' is rightly seen as unacceptable, then it's the principle that matters, not an event selected by another PHer to illustrate it. Selecting that event is natural as it's well-known.
Did you have anything material to add in response to Agammemnon's point? For example do you think that 'just following orders' is OK these days?
He's a formerly banned member who has now plucked up the courage to post on police related threads again.
Regarding the police - if it's a lawful order and you don't follow it you face discipline.
Nobody is asking the cops to exterminate Jews. Get over yourself and stop making ridiculous comparisons in an attempt to support your view.
You just look hard of thinking. HTH.
Edited by Red 4 on Wednesday 19th February 13:58
Red 4 said:
turbobloke said:
Red 4 said:
Agammemnon said:
turbobloke said:
The rot starts at the top, front line officers follow orders and have the stty end of the job.
The Nuremberg trials clearly established that following orders isn't acceptable defence for wrong behaviour.tty end of the job.You need help. You really do.
If 'just following orders' is rightly seen as unacceptable, then it's the principle that matters, not an event selected by another PHer to illustrate it. Selecting that event is natural as it's well-known.
Did you have anything material to add in response to Agammemnon's point? For example do you think that 'just following orders' is OK these days?
He's a formerly banned member who has now plucked up the courage to post on police related threads again.
Regarding the police - if it's a lawful order and you don't follow it you face discipline.
Nobody is asking the cops to exterminate Jews. Get over yourself.
You managed to misread my post completely, was it deliberate due to the awkward question in it?
Theree's no comparison with extermination camps.
The comparison concerns a principle, the principle that 'just following orders' is wrong - or do you think it's OK these days? You dodged answering the question when going personal (again) by going for the discipline angle. Sure, but is it right or wrong to 'just follow orders'?
turbobloke said:
Theree's no comparison with extermination camps.
The comparison concerns a principle, the principle that 'just following orders' is wrong - or do you think it's OK these days? You dodged answering the question when going personal (again) by going for the discipline angle. Sure, but is it right or wrong to 'just follow orders'?
If there's no comparison to the Nazis and the Holocaust then why are you trying to, er, compare the two ?The comparison concerns a principle, the principle that 'just following orders' is wrong - or do you think it's OK these days? You dodged answering the question when going personal (again) by going for the discipline angle. Sure, but is it right or wrong to 'just follow orders'?
I didn't ignore the question. The clue is the word LAWFUL.
Derek Smith said:
You are the one complaining, with some swingeing observations, yet you seem to have no ideas of your own.
The simplest way of problem solving is to break one problem, eg underperforming, into its individual constituents and then solve each individual part.
You suggest that convictions are down, yet there are more offenders in prison than ever before. Not only that, we lead Europe and most of the world in the percentage of the population imprisoned. By that measure, the police must be doing something well.
Your solution to the XR public disorder might be a point to start. Remember to take into account the manpower requirements for each individual arrest, then the processing and finally the court appearances, because that’s what those in charge would have done.
You think there’s a more fundamental problem. You must have some ideas what this is or else you’re merely posting guesses. Can you let us know what these problems are?
You suggest that village bobbies are a good idea. Could I ask you to work out the cost of these officers being visible all the time, plus the on-costs of travel or local residence?
You suggest that the number of stories and anecdotes of police ignoring ‘slam dunk’ low-level crime is ridiculous. I agree. These are ridiculous stories. There’s one poster who suggests the police are great at operating cameras. CCTV is a superb way of enforcing public order. It’s cost effective and allows proper resourcing of an incident. It is a fabulous investigative tool. Police don’t operate it in the main, but have access.
You ask whether the police are really short of manpower and resources. One way of comparing manpower and resources is to look to similar countries and compare. We are getting policing on the cheap.
Not only that, there’s a significant safeguard built in to the system that many other countries not only don’t have but eschew.
Earthdweller points out that political control is a significant problem. I do not agree that May was the worst ever HomSec though. I’d put her about equal with Blunket. Both performed abysmally.
I do agree with the idea of a Royal Commission though, particularly to look at what functions the police have. At the moment it is a backstop, covering for failures in other services. For some forces it is a significant drain on resources. Also, an RC is likely to give better results than unsubstantiated moans. It won’t happen though as an RC would point out that the police are doing too much with too little.
Hi Derek, The simplest way of problem solving is to break one problem, eg underperforming, into its individual constituents and then solve each individual part.
You suggest that convictions are down, yet there are more offenders in prison than ever before. Not only that, we lead Europe and most of the world in the percentage of the population imprisoned. By that measure, the police must be doing something well.
Your solution to the XR public disorder might be a point to start. Remember to take into account the manpower requirements for each individual arrest, then the processing and finally the court appearances, because that’s what those in charge would have done.
You think there’s a more fundamental problem. You must have some ideas what this is or else you’re merely posting guesses. Can you let us know what these problems are?
You suggest that village bobbies are a good idea. Could I ask you to work out the cost of these officers being visible all the time, plus the on-costs of travel or local residence?
You suggest that the number of stories and anecdotes of police ignoring ‘slam dunk’ low-level crime is ridiculous. I agree. These are ridiculous stories. There’s one poster who suggests the police are great at operating cameras. CCTV is a superb way of enforcing public order. It’s cost effective and allows proper resourcing of an incident. It is a fabulous investigative tool. Police don’t operate it in the main, but have access.
You ask whether the police are really short of manpower and resources. One way of comparing manpower and resources is to look to similar countries and compare. We are getting policing on the cheap.
Not only that, there’s a significant safeguard built in to the system that many other countries not only don’t have but eschew.
Earthdweller points out that political control is a significant problem. I do not agree that May was the worst ever HomSec though. I’d put her about equal with Blunket. Both performed abysmally.
I do agree with the idea of a Royal Commission though, particularly to look at what functions the police have. At the moment it is a backstop, covering for failures in other services. For some forces it is a significant drain on resources. Also, an RC is likely to give better results than unsubstantiated moans. It won’t happen though as an RC would point out that the police are doing too much with too little.
I think in trying to provoke a discussion, I may have appeared to be antagonistic, this is not the case. I would like to see the Police Service and those dedicated individuals and teams working within it reap the rewards of their efforts.
I was not looking for a thread full of sticks with which to beat the Police and I have recently read a number of reports on Bicycle theft, Rape convictions, availability of Detectives (employment terms for junior detectives seem no longer fit for purpose), then on burglary etc where again and again the trend lines are down.
I think working practices and employment terms are an issue, but I am slightly tired of the perpetual incremental changes that have resulted in a vastly different Policing experience compared to 30 years ago.
The whole thing needs a reboot. Including the relationship between the CPS and the Police.
turbobloke said:
Red 4 said:
Agammemnon said:
turbobloke said:
The rot starts at the top, front line officers follow orders and have the stty end of the job.
The Nuremberg trials clearly established that following orders isn't acceptable defence for wrong behaviour.tty end of the job.You need help. You really do.
If 'just following orders' is rightly seen as unacceptable, then it's the principle that matters, not an event selected by another PHer to illustrate it. Selecting that event is natural as it's well-known.
Did you have anything material to add in response to Agammemnon's point? For example do you think that 'just following orders' is OK these days?
I have a huge amount of respect for the officers on the streets, but those in charge, and the Government, clearly have little understanding of how the general public would like to see the police operate.
We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.
I had no idea that the police had that degree of funding. It's high time that Government changed police priorities, and made them much more visible and available. I'm sure that police officers must find this equally frustrating. Hopefully once we are free of the EU things can change.
We need to go back to having a police force. Protecting victims and not the human rights of criminals. Actually enforcing the law for crimes that matter (assaults, burglaries, criminal damage, antisocial behaviour, vandalism, etc), and giving a lower priority to camera vans, name calling on social media, and being seen to be 'woke'.
I had no idea that the police had that degree of funding. It's high time that Government changed police priorities, and made them much more visible and available. I'm sure that police officers must find this equally frustrating. Hopefully once we are free of the EU things can change.
I'd be grateful if everyone wanting to argue about following orders and such like could just p
s off to any other NP&E thread thanks!On a positive note, I will indeed write again to my MP to suggest a wide ranging Royal Commission. I think the management of the Police Service has indeed become managerial and more about budgets and resources than good principles and outcomes.
I too am very grateful for the work the Police do, I see myself as a natural supporter of the Police, I am just disappointed with some of the things I read and the results. I would like to see change.
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