Organ donation.

[Agammemnon]

bloomen said:

If you know you're on your way out may I suggest you book a month in a Travelodge and keep the door locked. That way they won't 'get' you.

I guarantee that if I know in advance it'll be a significantly better hotel & anything left will be in no fit state to harvest.

[chow pan toon]

Jasandjules said:

I think the OP objects to the concept that our body autonomy is impacted by this and the concept should be to Opt In. Namely people volunteer for this rather than are required to absent evidence they do not wish it.

There is a more difficult issue regarding how much effort will be put in to save people when it is known that they could save several lives if they "died"....I am waiting for the opportunity to speak to a couple of friends about this who will know exactly how that will go.

Our body autonomy is not disrupted by something we can freely and easily opt out of. As for your tinfoil-hattery in the second paragraph, I'll leave that.

I think there is a moral argument to be had that if you are unwilling to donate then you should at the very least have a lower priority for available organs than those who do. I see this as a sympton of the me me me attitude that is so prevalent these days.

[Agammemnon]

Bill said:

OTOH for every person who feels strongly like you there are probably dozens who don't feel strongly either way and therefore haven't bothered opting in.

IMO presumed consent makes sense as it's too late to ask the person once they're in a position to donate.

Presuming that my organs have a decent value then maybe they could go to the effort of asking me rather than just taking.

[Exige77]

Agammemnon said:

i4got said:

So for the avoidance of doubt. You feel that opt out organ donation would give you the moral right to rape someone?

I said & think nothing of the sort. What I feel is that people should have the right to be left alone unless they specifically choose otherwise.

I think your splitting hairs.

Maybe first world problem ?

You can chose to opt in it out.

Sure many people would like to help others but just forget to opt in ? Can’t be bothered to do it even though they want to ?

Or too busy saying their human rights have been taken away ?

The Government don’t keep the organs for themselves, they are for people like “you and me” that might be in dire need of them.

[Agammemnon]

Exige77 said:

I think your splitting hairs.

Maybe first world problem ?

You can chose to opt in it out.

Sure many people would like to help others but just forget to opt in ? Can’t be bothered to do it even though they want to ?

Or too busy saying their human rights have been taken away ?

The Government don’t keep the organs for themselves, they are for people like “you and me” that might be in dire need of them.

You might accept the government deciding for you- fair enough. Please respect my view whereby they should leave alone unless I specifically opt in- if it means a lot then they know where they can find me to ask.

[Randy Winkman]

I think the change is a good one. A dead body is just a heap of bones. I don't go it for any of this spiritual stuff. Once you are dead, you are dead and anyone who doesn't want their dead body, or their family member's dead body to help another person needs to take a hard look at themself.

[i4got]

Agammemnon said:

Presuming that my organs have a decent value then maybe they could go to the effort of asking me rather than just taking.

Isn't that the point, They have no value to you (or your relatives) when you're dead.

I could understand the organs having some value and requiring consent if they wanted to take them while you were still alive.

[Cold]

If the organ donation system is so highly regarded and lauded, why doesn't it have a virtually 100% take-up already?
Why does it need government intervention to make a voluntary process work?

[BugLebowski]

I have no problem with an opt out system, providing the final decision lies with the deceased's next of kin unless the deceased has opted in. Which would leave the following scenarios;

-deceased has signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin agrees; Organs donated.

-deceased has signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin disagrees; Organs donated anyway.

-deceased has not signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin wants to donate organs; Organs donated.

-deceased has not signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin does not want to donate organs; Organs not donated.

It removes the 'state ownership' from the argument and passes it on to the next of kin.

edit; should be a fifth scenario I suppose when the deceased has specifically opted out of organ donation.

Edited by BugLebowski on Tuesday 25th February 12:51

[Exige77]

Agammemnon said:

Exige77 said:

I think your splitting hairs.

Maybe first world problem ?

You can chose to opt in it out.

Sure many people would like to help others but just forget to opt in ? Can’t be bothered to do it even though they want to ?

Or too busy saying their human rights have been taken away ?

The Government don’t keep the organs for themselves, they are for people like “you and me” that might be in dire need of them.

You might accept the government deciding for you- fair enough. Please respect my view whereby they should leave alone unless I specifically opt in- if it means a lot then they know where they can find me to ask.

Those are the rules.

You are surely entitled to your opinion.

So, are you going to opt out on principle then ?

[Agammemnon]

i4got said:

Isn't that the point, They have no value to you (or your relatives) when you're dead.

It's like the grass clippings when I mow the lawn- no use to me & anyone who wants them is welcome but they can bloody well ask rather than just helping themselves.

[Bill]

Agammemnon said:

Presuming that my organs have a decent value then maybe they could go to the effort of asking me rather than just taking.

Using a medium?

[i4got]

Agammemnon said:

It's like the grass clippings when I mow the lawn- no use to me & anyone who wants them is welcome but they can bloody well ask rather than just helping themselves.

It's more akin to asking the grass clippings.

[Agammemnon]

Bill said:

Agammemnon said:

Presuming that my organs have a decent value then maybe they could go to the effort of asking me rather than just taking.

Using a medium?

In advance- an email saying "May we" would be fine- I'd probably answer "mais oui"

[BrassMan]

Agammemnon said:

redandwhite said:

If it bothers you then dont sign up.

That's the whole point- the government has decided on our behalf. I was happy to opt in but who the hell do they think they are to make the decision for me?

But did you opt in? Like giving blood, it's fairly quick and simple but most just don't bother and we can assume that opting out will be the same.

[Stay in Bed Instead]

Exige77 said:

The Government don’t keep the organs for themselves, they are for people like “you and me” that might be in dire need of them.

The Vidiians would agree with you.

[Exige77]

BugLebowski said:

I have no problem with an opt out system, providing the final decision lies with the deceased's next of kin unless the deceased has opted in. Which would leave the following scenarios;

-deceased has signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin agrees; Organs donated.

-deceased has signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin disagrees; Organs donated anyway.

-deceased has not signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin wants to donate organs; Organs donated.

-deceased has not signed up to be an organ donor, next of kin does not want to donate organs; Organs not donated.

It removes the 'state ownership' from the argument and passes it on to the next of kin.

The reality is the recently bereaved are sometimes in no fit state to make that decision quickly.

I am told on the day, relatives often don’t want their loved ones cut up, but often, the next day they change their mind and it’s too late then.

Much easier if the donor makes his wishes clear while he’s able to.

[Oakey]

i4got said:

Agammemnon said:

Presuming that my organs have a decent value then maybe they could go to the effort of asking me rather than just taking.

Isn't that the point, They have no value to you (or your relatives) when you're dead.

I could understand the organs having some value and requiring consent if they wanted to take them while you were still alive.

Erm, that's pretty much how organ donation works? If whatever illness you're in hospital with hasn't actually killed you, then the removal of your organs most definitely will.

If you're actually dead, as in stiff and cold, then your organs are dead and useless for donation.

[anonymous-user]

when you are dead, the preciousness you have is gone, We are just fresh and bones, that could help someone live again.

[Agammemnon]

BrassMan said:

Agammemnon said:

redandwhite said:

If it bothers you then dont sign up.

That's the whole point- the government has decided on our behalf. I was happy to opt in but who the hell do they think they are to make the decision for me?

But did you opt in?

I did. It's the presumption I object to, not the donation.