Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party?
Discussion
Rivenink said:
You're aware of course that you might just be convincing yourself that the end isn't nigh.
People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
I genuinely think you are highlighting minorities not the majority People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
History .. meh
Some are hung up on Brexit, some still rant about Thatcher …irrelevant
The election will be won/lost on who people think at the time will be the best for them and their families now and tomorrow as are all elections
Whilst the glasto crowds worshipped magic grandpa and proclaimed the second coming and a Labour landslide the silent majority sat at home and thought f
k that! ‘‘Twas ever the way and next year will be the same
2xChevrons said:
They will have no real idea what to do with all that power and no one will particular care. Not the thing great administrations are made of.
If you or anyone else remembers the documentary on New Labour I'm thinking of, that'll be deja vu...when Our Tone got a large majority in 1997 it was genuinely unexpected, after the saga of Major and Kinnock in 92. Back then Major was leading a governing party, which had been in power for 13 years, facing a GE campaign at the end of the longest recession for more than 50 years, unemployment was rising, interest rates were above 10% and house prices had collapsed. Polls had shown a Labour lead but had been close. The result was a Tory share of the vote largely unchanged, and in the 40s iirc with Labour not close in the 30s.
Where is this going in terms of the documentary...more than one of those present in the first meeting of Labour bigwigs when they did actually win in 1997 said that the basis of the meeting was 'ok so we won, wtf are we going to do?'
No real idea what to do after winning power.
Earthdweller said:
Rivenink said:
You're aware of course that you might just be convincing yourself that the end isn't nigh.
People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
I genuinely think you are highlighting minorities not the majority People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
History .. meh
Some are hung up on Brexit, some still rant about Thatcher …irrelevant
The election will be won/lost on who people think at the time will be the best for them and their families now and tomorrow as are all elections
Whilst the glasto crowds worshipped magic grandpa and proclaimed the second coming and a Labour landslide the silent majority sat at home and thought f
k that! ‘‘Twas ever the way and next year will be the same
I think people will look at the mismanagement of the economy over the past quarter of a decade, notice that they're wages haven't gone up anywhere near as fast as prices. That they're paying more taxes. That public services are worse. That the police are ineffective. That they or someone they know and care about is waiting longer for healthcare. That their kids schools are falling apart.
People held their nose and voted for Boris Johnson; knowing he was a liar and a coward. You think they won't for Starmer who is no where near as slimy?
AstonZagato said:
I don't think I've met a Tory voter who intends to vote Labour. Many who won't vote. Some going to Reform. I'm sure there are plenty but not in my friendship group.
Agree also a number of younger sons/ daughters of friends who would have voted Corbyn but frankly think Starmer offers them nothing so probably won’t vote. Is it me, or have Labour just guaranteed that every Surgeon above the LTA will now retire en masse in 2024.
I certainly will be taking my pension. Wasn't sure, was thinking about going, then the removal of the LTA made me happy to continue but now with their announcement I cannot risk it and will now have to take my Pension in 2024.
Can see a large number of people in the same (lucky) boat thinking the same.
I certainly will be taking my pension. Wasn't sure, was thinking about going, then the removal of the LTA made me happy to continue but now with their announcement I cannot risk it and will now have to take my Pension in 2024.
Can see a large number of people in the same (lucky) boat thinking the same.
Gary C said:
Is it me, or have Labour just guaranteed that every Surgeon above the LTA will now retire en masse in 2024.
I certainly will be taking my pension. Wasn't sure, was thinking about going, then the removal of the LTA made me happy to continue but now with their announcement I cannot risk it and will now have to take my Pension in 2024.
Can see a large number of people in the same (lucky) boat thinking the same.
And why not, the message is clear.I certainly will be taking my pension. Wasn't sure, was thinking about going, then the removal of the LTA made me happy to continue but now with their announcement I cannot risk it and will now have to take my Pension in 2024.
Can see a large number of people in the same (lucky) boat thinking the same.
turbobloke said:
Gary C said:
Is it me, or have Labour just guaranteed that every Surgeon above the LTA will now retire en masse in 2024.
I certainly will be taking my pension. Wasn't sure, was thinking about going, then the removal of the LTA made me happy to continue but now with their announcement I cannot risk it and will now have to take my Pension in 2024.
Can see a large number of people in the same (lucky) boat thinking the same.
And why not, the message is clear.I certainly will be taking my pension. Wasn't sure, was thinking about going, then the removal of the LTA made me happy to continue but now with their announcement I cannot risk it and will now have to take my Pension in 2024.
Can see a large number of people in the same (lucky) boat thinking the same.
Rivenink said:
You're aware of course that you might just be convincing yourself that the end isn't nigh.
People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
I'm staggered that this isn't forefront of everyone's mind. People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
They won't be forgiven for Covid, Truss, inflation, the energy crisis, the NHS etc etc.
They've completely abandoned the North, it's almost laughable. Effectively dropped any pretence of levelling up and instead had a budget giveaway for the very wealthy.
At a stretch I can see that it may be important how many SNP seats go to back to Labour.
Maybe people have forgotten just how unelectable Corbyn was and how electable Cameron and to a lesser extend Johnson was before him.
ChocolateFrog said:
Rivenink said:
You're aware of course that you might just be convincing yourself that the end isn't nigh.
People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
I'm staggered that this isn't forefront of everyone's mind. People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
They won't be forgiven for Covid, Truss, inflation, the energy crisis, the NHS etc etc.
They've completely abandoned the North, it's almost laughable. Effectively dropped any pretence of levelling up and instead had a budget giveaway for the very wealthy.
At a stretch I can see that it may be important how many SNP seats go to back to Labour.
Maybe people have forgotten just how unelectable Corbyn was and how electable Cameron and to a lesser extend Johnson was before him.
HS2. Nope
HS trans penine. Nope. Even the slow train to Manchester is completely unreliable
Airport closed
GBR - nope
I will be curious to see what the mystery £20m is spent on.
All within the last 12 months pretty much.
The areas been Labour forever anyway so I suppose it won't make much difference if the majority just increases by a few thousand.
I've voted for the party that has been elected at every election I've been eligible to vote except for Charles Kennedy's Lib Dems, because student.
I won't be voting Tory this time.
The areas been Labour forever anyway so I suppose it won't make much difference if the majority just increases by a few thousand.
I've voted for the party that has been elected at every election I've been eligible to vote except for Charles Kennedy's Lib Dems, because student.
I won't be voting Tory this time.
ChocolateFrog said:
Rivenink said:
You're aware of course that you might just be convincing yourself that the end isn't nigh.
People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
I'm staggered that this isn't forefront of everyone's mind. People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
They won't be forgiven for Covid, Truss, inflation, the energy crisis, the NHS etc etc.
They've completely abandoned the North, it's almost laughable. Effectively dropped any pretence of levelling up and instead had a budget giveaway for the very wealthy.
At a stretch I can see that it may be important how many SNP seats go to back to Labour.
Maybe people have forgotten just how unelectable Corbyn was and how electable Cameron and to a lesser extend Johnson was before him.
Think I am fairly representative of a large swathe of the population; in the middle-ground of the political spectrum.
From the above:
"People won't forget the Brexit chaos"
Majority of people have - vote was 7 years ago and what is done is done - say that as an ardent remainer at the time
People won't forget Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
Really? I remember more about the Blair, Brown & Cameron governments than anything from May
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
Everyone except his faithful followers knew what Boris was like so not a surprise to most
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
Absolutely right, the fact that the party members voted her in lost any chance of my vote again for a lifetime
OzzyR1 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Rivenink said:
You're aware of course that you might just be convincing yourself that the end isn't nigh.
People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
I'm staggered that this isn't forefront of everyone's mind. People won't forget the Brexit chaos, Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
They probabaly might forget Sunak though; and instead remember the winter they spent in coats and jumpers, unable to afford to heat their homes.
The Tories are toast, and Labour is, unfortunately, the only alternative.
They won't be forgiven for Covid, Truss, inflation, the energy crisis, the NHS etc etc.
They've completely abandoned the North, it's almost laughable. Effectively dropped any pretence of levelling up and instead had a budget giveaway for the very wealthy.
At a stretch I can see that it may be important how many SNP seats go to back to Labour.
Maybe people have forgotten just how unelectable Corbyn was and how electable Cameron and to a lesser extend Johnson was before him.
Think I am fairly representative of a large swathe of the population; in the middle-ground of the political spectrum.
From the above:
"People won't forget the Brexit chaos"
Majority of people have - vote was 7 years ago and what is done is done - say that as an ardent remainer at the time
People won't forget Theresa May and her strong and stable wheat field running.
Really? I remember more about the Blair, Brown & Cameron governments than anything from May
They won't forget Boris Johnson partying away while they were locked away in their homes, unable to be with their family at times of greatest need.
Everyone except his faithful followers knew what Boris was like so not a surprise to most
They won't forget Liz Truss's 45 days of recklessness.
Absolutely right, the fact that the party members voted her in lost any chance of my vote again for a lifetime
But on your points:
- Brexit cuts across party lines. There are equally those that won’t forgive Starmer.
- May was utterly forgettable. She was the Starmer of the Tories.
- Partygate? I don’t know anyone who was obeying the rules to the letter. Not one. Cheeky drinks with mates, meeting in gardens. The spirit? Yes. But not the letter. I suspect that one’s dudgeon about it depends on one’s views on Johnson rather than the number of parties. My view was that he had to go: not because he partied, but rather because of his utter incompetence - he didn’t have the political understanding to see the optics (to stop it in the first place), get ahead of the situation, allowed Cummings to knife him, lack of convincing defence.
- Truss? The average voter will have barely registered her.
ChocolateFrog said:
Effectively dropped any pretence of levelling up and instead had a budget giveaway for the very wealthy.
What was this big giveaway?, as all I saw was higher taxes for virtually all. The fact that most of this is accomplished by not raising thresholds in line with very high inflation doesn't mean that it is not happening and you won't be paying an ever increasing amount to the state.The Tories will almost certainly lose the next election but it won't be because of "budget giveaways" as everyone on a decent salary is getting squeezed. It will be because of the many things that they have messed up/blown up on their time in office. Lockdown, energy, law and order etc etc.
I've helped a few people canvas recently for local elections and the Labour lead is quite soft. It's not like 1997 and Blair.
The lost Tory votes have mainly gone to Don't Know or Won't Vote this time rather than to Labour. If the Tories manage to show a slight level of competence over the next 18 months they will get some of those back. And people lie, they say they won't vote but in a GE they do.
I'm not saying any of this will be enough for the Tories to win but they have a chance of avoiding Armageddon.
As for Labour they'll need to show a real vision and plan to convince people and realise they can't be everything to everyone and decide who they want to appeal to.
Labour are still clearly favourites to win one way or another but Starmer probably shouldn't order the curtains yet just in case.
The lost Tory votes have mainly gone to Don't Know or Won't Vote this time rather than to Labour. If the Tories manage to show a slight level of competence over the next 18 months they will get some of those back. And people lie, they say they won't vote but in a GE they do.
I'm not saying any of this will be enough for the Tories to win but they have a chance of avoiding Armageddon.
As for Labour they'll need to show a real vision and plan to convince people and realise they can't be everything to everyone and decide who they want to appeal to.
Labour are still clearly favourites to win one way or another but Starmer probably shouldn't order the curtains yet just in case.
JagLover said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Effectively dropped any pretence of levelling up and instead had a budget giveaway for the very wealthy.
What was this big giveaway?, as all I saw was higher taxes for virtually all. The fact that most of this is accomplished by not raising thresholds in line with very high inflation doesn't mean that it is not happening and you won't be paying an ever increasing amount to the state.The Tories will almost certainly lose the next election but it won't be because of "budget giveaways" as everyone on a decent salary is getting squeezed. It will be because of the many things that they have messed up/blown up on their time in office. Lockdown, energy, law and order etc etc.
86 said:
JagLover said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Effectively dropped any pretence of levelling up and instead had a budget giveaway for the very wealthy.
What was this big giveaway?, as all I saw was higher taxes for virtually all. The fact that most of this is accomplished by not raising thresholds in line with very high inflation doesn't mean that it is not happening and you won't be paying an ever increasing amount to the state.The Tories will almost certainly lose the next election but it won't be because of "budget giveaways" as everyone on a decent salary is getting squeezed. It will be because of the many things that they have messed up/blown up on their time in office. Lockdown, energy, law and order etc etc.
My overriding impression of covid in this country is that was two different worlds,: those that didn't really get directly impacted by it and just felt constrained by the restrictions and then those that got it or were badly affected by it or were working in the war zones (hospitals) & I'm not sure some if those in the first group really understand what it was like to be in the second group.
Politicians were just on a hiding to nothing whatever they did IMO.
Wombat3 said:
Without getting into a debate about lockdowns, if you are a politician with no direct medical knowledge and entirely reliant on others for information on which to base a decision, in our blame culture society you'd likely be had up for murder if you went against the advice of the great and the good who were screaming for lockdowns etc,
My overriding impression of covid in this country is that was two different worlds,: those that didn't really get directly impacted by it and just felt constrained by the restrictions and then those that got it or were badly affected by it or were working in the war zones (hospitals) & I'm not sure some if those in the first group really understand what it was like to be in the second group.
Politicians were just on a hiding to nothing whatever they did IMO.
Agree with Wombat - don't say that very often! My overriding impression of covid in this country is that was two different worlds,: those that didn't really get directly impacted by it and just felt constrained by the restrictions and then those that got it or were badly affected by it or were working in the war zones (hospitals) & I'm not sure some if those in the first group really understand what it was like to be in the second group.
Politicians were just on a hiding to nothing whatever they did IMO.
S600BSB said:
Wombat3 said:
Without getting into a debate about lockdowns, if you are a politician with no direct medical knowledge and entirely reliant on others for information on which to base a decision, in our blame culture society you'd likely be had up for murder if you went against the advice of the great and the good who were screaming for lockdowns etc,
My overriding impression of covid in this country is that it was two different worlds,: those that didn't really get directly impacted by it and just felt constrained by the restrictions and then those that got it or were badly affected by it or were working in the war zones (hospitals) & I'm not sure some if those in the first group really understand what it was like to be in the second group.
Politicians were just on a hiding to nothing whatever they did IMO.
Agree with Wombat - don't say that very often! My overriding impression of covid in this country is that it was two different worlds,: those that didn't really get directly impacted by it and just felt constrained by the restrictions and then those that got it or were badly affected by it or were working in the war zones (hospitals) & I'm not sure some if those in the first group really understand what it was like to be in the second group.
Politicians were just on a hiding to nothing whatever they did IMO.
Saw mention of Labour's tax plans somewhere yesterday from an anonymous frontbencher - seemed to be more of the same (tax everything so we can spend it), with a healthy dose of deliberate class war layered on top summarisable as 'If we target the people with money via capital gains/income/pensions/inheritance taxes, all the working class will line up to support us. And the Remain supporting liberal middle class will accept it. And the rest can fk off'.
Feels like more of the same ignorant wealthy student politics they've always gone back to, especially their outright contempt for the working classes.
Keir is just the hollow front man, there's plenty of New Labour ste still high in the party plus a nice cohort of newer idiots with no experience outside their little bubbles.
The Tories right now are st and the only alternative seems to be more of the same but somehow even worse.
k off'.Feels like more of the same ignorant wealthy student politics they've always gone back to, especially their outright contempt for the working classes.
Keir is just the hollow front man, there's plenty of New Labour s
te still high in the party plus a nice cohort of newer idiots with no experience outside their little bubbles.The Tories right now are s
t and the only alternative seems to be more of the same but somehow even worse. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff