Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party?
Discussion
Trouble is the Labour Party is really two parties, that could stick to their ideologies more easily if they went their separate ways.
There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Tuesday 13th April 06:23
I think people read too much in to the 2017 GE result. You have to remember that the electorate were pissed off with the Tories and then May ran an utterly, utterly, utterly, utterly useless campaign (and was an awful PM) whilst Corbyn was at the absolute Zenith of his honeymoon period. Shortly after the electorate began to wake up and learn about Corbyn's politics and the people he surrounded himself with. He was simply lucky with the timing of that GE.
sam.rog said:
I have no idea what their policies are and what they stand for.
They just seem to say the boo to the conservatives but aren’t saying what they would do differently. I have no idea what their position is on anything.
I agree, This is the main problem for me. I do not know what the Labour party stand for or how they will provide it. As far as I can see they are still a protest party, telling us what the government should not do. It's very easy to do that from the opposition benches. They just seem to say the boo to the conservatives but aren’t saying what they would do differently. I have no idea what their position is on anything.
I understood what Labour intended under Corbyn, and it was f
king scary. I don't see that Starmer has distanced the party from that (indeed he himself stood shoulder to shoulder with Corbyn on that manifesto). I don't see a clear new direction in which the party is going, they just seem to be bumbling along with mostly the same old faces that the electorate comprehensively rejected last time around. Maybe I am being uncharitable, and a lot of work has been done under the covers and at some point shortly there will be a "Ta Daaaahhhhh" moment as the Labour party of the future is unveiled. But there is not a whiff of that happening. Every time I see Sir Kier on the TV, he opens his mouth and nothing but noise comes out, you can pretty much predict his answer will be "Criticise X and say that we would have done it better". His response to the budget speech was utterly bizarre. As others have said, he is a manager (and not on the face of it a very good one), not a leader.
Corbyn, for all his faults was a leader. That's what Labour needs now, a leader - just not one that is bats
t crazy. The problem is, who? I look at the upper echelons of the party and I cannot see anyone that can motivate and lead, that is the indictment of the people that the leadership surrounded themselves with over the last few years. I'm sure that there are good people in the Labour party, they just need to find a way to the surface. Edited by TriumphStag3.0V8 on Tuesday 13th April 09:21
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
I agree, This is the main problem for me. I do not know what the Labour party stand for or how they will provide it. As far as I can see they are still a protest party, telling us what the government should not do. It's very easy to do that from the opposition benches.
I understood what Labour intended under Corbyn, and it was fking scary. I don't see that Starmer has distanced the party from that (indeed he himself stood shoulder to shoulder with Corbyn on that manifesto). I don't see a clear new direction in which the party is going, they just seem to be bumbling along with mostly the same old faces that the electorate comprehensively rejected last time around. Maybe I am being uncharitable, and a lot of work has been done under the covers and at some point shortly there will be a "Ta Daaaahhhhh" moment as the Labour party of the future is unveiled. But there is not a whiff of that happening.
Every time I see Sir Kier on the TV, he opens his mouth and nothing but noise comes out, you can pretty much predict his answer will be "Criticise X and say that we would have done it better". His response to the budget speech was utterly bizarre. As others have said, he is a manager (and not on the face of it a very good one), not a leader.
Corbyn, for all his faults was a leader. That's what Labour needs now, a leader - just not one that is batst crazy. The problem is, who? I look at the upper echelons of the party and I cannot see anyone that can motivate and lead, that is the indictment of the people that the leadership surrounded themselves with over the last few years. I'm sure that there are good people in the Labour party, they just need to find a way to the surface.
I'm half with you, I knew what Labour was about under Corbyn but he was no leader. His leadership was the reason I left the party, weak willed and to anchored in his ideology to think on his feet. I have been flamed for this before but I liked the old geezer, but leader he was not. I understood what Labour intended under Corbyn, and it was f
king scary. I don't see that Starmer has distanced the party from that (indeed he himself stood shoulder to shoulder with Corbyn on that manifesto). I don't see a clear new direction in which the party is going, they just seem to be bumbling along with mostly the same old faces that the electorate comprehensively rejected last time around. Maybe I am being uncharitable, and a lot of work has been done under the covers and at some point shortly there will be a "Ta Daaaahhhhh" moment as the Labour party of the future is unveiled. But there is not a whiff of that happening. Every time I see Sir Kier on the TV, he opens his mouth and nothing but noise comes out, you can pretty much predict his answer will be "Criticise X and say that we would have done it better". His response to the budget speech was utterly bizarre. As others have said, he is a manager (and not on the face of it a very good one), not a leader.
Corbyn, for all his faults was a leader. That's what Labour needs now, a leader - just not one that is bats
t crazy. The problem is, who? I look at the upper echelons of the party and I cannot see anyone that can motivate and lead, that is the indictment of the people that the leadership surrounded themselves with over the last few years. I'm sure that there are good people in the Labour party, they just need to find a way to the surface. Edited by TriumphStag3.0V8 on Tuesday 13th April 09:21
biggbn said:
I'm half with you, I knew what Labour was about under Corbyn but he was no leader. His leadership was the reason I left the party, weak willed and to anchored in his ideology to think on his feet. I have been flamed for this before but I liked the old geezer, but leader he was not.
Spot on. TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
I agree, This is the main problem for me. I do not know what the Labour party stand for or how they will provide it. As far as I can see they are still a protest party, telling us what the government should not do. It's very easy to do that from the opposition benches.
I understood what Labour intended under Corbyn, and it was fking scary. I don't see that Starmer has distanced the party from that (indeed he himself stood shoulder to shoulder with Corbyn on that manifesto). I don't see a clear new direction in which the party is going, they just seem to be bumbling along with mostly the same old faces that the electorate comprehensively rejected last time around. Maybe I am being uncharitable, and a lot of work has been done under the covers and at some point shortly there will be a "Ta Daaaahhhhh" moment as the Labour party of the future is unveiled. But there is not a whiff of that happening.
Every time I see Sir Kier on the TV, he opens his mouth and nothing but noise comes out, you can pretty much predict his answer will be "Criticise X and say that we would have done it better". His response to the budget speech was utterly bizarre. As others have said, he is a manager (and not on the face of it a very good one), not a leader.
Corbyn, for all his faults was a leader. That's what Labour needs now, a leader - just not one that is batst crazy. The problem is, who? I look at the upper echelons of the party and I cannot see anyone that can motivate and lead, that is the indictment of the people that the leadership surrounded themselves with over the last few years. I'm sure that there are good people in the Labour party, they just need to find a way to the surface.
This is always my problem with Labour, I simply do not trust them. I understood what Labour intended under Corbyn, and it was f
king scary. I don't see that Starmer has distanced the party from that (indeed he himself stood shoulder to shoulder with Corbyn on that manifesto). I don't see a clear new direction in which the party is going, they just seem to be bumbling along with mostly the same old faces that the electorate comprehensively rejected last time around. Maybe I am being uncharitable, and a lot of work has been done under the covers and at some point shortly there will be a "Ta Daaaahhhhh" moment as the Labour party of the future is unveiled. But there is not a whiff of that happening. Every time I see Sir Kier on the TV, he opens his mouth and nothing but noise comes out, you can pretty much predict his answer will be "Criticise X and say that we would have done it better". His response to the budget speech was utterly bizarre. As others have said, he is a manager (and not on the face of it a very good one), not a leader.
Corbyn, for all his faults was a leader. That's what Labour needs now, a leader - just not one that is bats
t crazy. The problem is, who? I look at the upper echelons of the party and I cannot see anyone that can motivate and lead, that is the indictment of the people that the leadership surrounded themselves with over the last few years. I'm sure that there are good people in the Labour party, they just need to find a way to the surface. There are just too many examples (going back to Blair and beyond) of weasil words & half truths disguising real intentions because they know those intentions are unpalatable to the majority. Typified by Blair and Browns claims about not raising taxes whilst instead raping pension funds, raising NI & allowing fiscal drag on allowances.
Like most of the rest of the labour party, Starmer is no more than a fence sitter, he will say whatever he thinks might get him elected. He also won't ever say what he really thinks.
Johnnytheboy said:
Trouble is the Labour Party is really two parties, that could stick to their ideologies more easily if they went their separate ways.
There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
I'd say Guardian and Independent, rather than Mirror.There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Tuesday 13th April 06:23
Most Mirror readers are working class and dont care about Palestine.
aston80 said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Trouble is the Labour Party is really two parties, that could stick to their ideologies more easily if they went their separate ways.
There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
I'd say Guardian and Independent, rather than Mirror.There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Tuesday 13th April 06:23
Most Mirror readers are working class and dont care about Palestine.
otolith said:
aston80 said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Trouble is the Labour Party is really two parties, that could stick to their ideologies more easily if they went their separate ways.
There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
I'd say Guardian and Independent, rather than Mirror.There's an old Labour Party that might have a chance to regain the Red Wall by being pro-British, pro-Brexit, pro-NHS, not super keen on immigration and not obsessed with Palestine.
Then a New Left Party that is more internationalist, can go on about Palestine to its heart's content, be unashamedly Remain and pro-immigration. Oh and see everything through the lens of identity, as is the fashion. It would hoover up inner London and university towns.
ETA Mirror readers and Guardian readers in short, though last I put it that way one of the "normally I vote Tory" posters got quite upset at me.
Trouble is neither would ever form a working majority.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Tuesday 13th April 06:23
Most Mirror readers are working class and dont care about Palestine.
Wombat3 said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
I agree, This is the main problem for me. I do not know what the Labour party stand for or how they will provide it. As far as I can see they are still a protest party, telling us what the government should not do. It's very easy to do that from the opposition benches.
I understood what Labour intended under Corbyn, and it was fking scary. I don't see that Starmer has distanced the party from that (indeed he himself stood shoulder to shoulder with Corbyn on that manifesto). I don't see a clear new direction in which the party is going, they just seem to be bumbling along with mostly the same old faces that the electorate comprehensively rejected last time around. Maybe I am being uncharitable, and a lot of work has been done under the covers and at some point shortly there will be a "Ta Daaaahhhhh" moment as the Labour party of the future is unveiled. But there is not a whiff of that happening.
Every time I see Sir Kier on the TV, he opens his mouth and nothing but noise comes out, you can pretty much predict his answer will be "Criticise X and say that we would have done it better". His response to the budget speech was utterly bizarre. As others have said, he is a manager (and not on the face of it a very good one), not a leader.
Corbyn, for all his faults was a leader. That's what Labour needs now, a leader - just not one that is batst crazy. The problem is, who? I look at the upper echelons of the party and I cannot see anyone that can motivate and lead, that is the indictment of the people that the leadership surrounded themselves with over the last few years. I'm sure that there are good people in the Labour party, they just need to find a way to the surface.
This is always my problem with Labour, I simply do not trust them. I understood what Labour intended under Corbyn, and it was f
king scary. I don't see that Starmer has distanced the party from that (indeed he himself stood shoulder to shoulder with Corbyn on that manifesto). I don't see a clear new direction in which the party is going, they just seem to be bumbling along with mostly the same old faces that the electorate comprehensively rejected last time around. Maybe I am being uncharitable, and a lot of work has been done under the covers and at some point shortly there will be a "Ta Daaaahhhhh" moment as the Labour party of the future is unveiled. But there is not a whiff of that happening. Every time I see Sir Kier on the TV, he opens his mouth and nothing but noise comes out, you can pretty much predict his answer will be "Criticise X and say that we would have done it better". His response to the budget speech was utterly bizarre. As others have said, he is a manager (and not on the face of it a very good one), not a leader.
Corbyn, for all his faults was a leader. That's what Labour needs now, a leader - just not one that is bats
t crazy. The problem is, who? I look at the upper echelons of the party and I cannot see anyone that can motivate and lead, that is the indictment of the people that the leadership surrounded themselves with over the last few years. I'm sure that there are good people in the Labour party, they just need to find a way to the surface. There are just too many examples (going back to Blair and beyond) of weasil words & half truths disguising real intentions because they know those intentions are unpalatable to the majority. Typified by Blair and Browns claims about not raising taxes whilst instead raping pension funds, raising NI & allowing fiscal drag on allowances.
Like most of the rest of the labour party, Starmer is no more than a fence sitter, he will say whatever he thinks might get him elected. He also won't ever say what he really thinks.
andy43 said:
What's in the Kier bag?
turbobloke said:
andy43 said:
What's in the Kier bag?
https://mobile.twitter.com/charlxtte_c/status/1382...
bhstewie said:
No doubt SKS mumbled "bigoted man" under his breath as he walked away.hstewie said:Men In Blue - just waiting to zap him with their flashy thing..
Edited by eliot on Monday 19th April 15:19
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